This week sees the release of the latest EP from Homeboy Sandman, Anjelitu. Produced entirely by his friend and Lice collaborator, Aesop Rock, it is a project that has been a long time in the making. GingerSlim recently caught up with Boy Sand to discuss the creation of the EP, as well as facing up to home truths, working with Aesop Rock and Edan, his time in law school, and if there’s still hope for bringing change to the world.
[The following has been lightly edited for clarity]
So how are you doing, man? Are you all set for the release?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like I’m ready and I’m definitely excited for the joint coming out.
I know you’ve got the tour coming up in September as well. How are you feeling about all that?
I’m feeling super hyped. I was back on stage for the first time since March last year, earlier this month, and it felt great, man. It felt great to be home again. You know what I mean? I’m never going to take it for granted again.
Yeah, I bet. I was listening to the new EP earlier and I mean your flow has always amazed me anyway, but there was a bit on “West Coast” where I couldn’t even hear you take a breath. It was crazy. Is that something you’ve had to spend a lot of time working on, or was it something that came fairly naturally to you when you started rapping?
Well, it definitely takes practice. Like with “West Coast,” I’ve done that live a couple of times and it takes a lot of practice to work out where the breathing gaps are going to be. And not only to figure out where the gaps are, because with a jam like “West Coast” I’ll even take out a few words if it doesn’t change the meaning. Like I’ll take out a ‘the’ or something like that. Actually, when I was on stage earlier this month, like I was telling you, I did “Go Hard” for the first time and that’s in a similar vein, you know where some of these flows have a higher density at times, I gotta find what to subtract without changing what it is I’m saying. But I spend a lot of time doing that anyway, because you know some artists have a gift for memorisation, like my boy I Am Many, he memorises a joint pretty much when he’s done writing it and that blows my mind. But for me, I need to put a lot of time into memorisation, so it’s helpful to me to keep going over stuff because that is how I get familiar with the breathing and with the little syllables I can subtract here and there to make sure I can say the rest.
Yeah, that’s interesting, man. There’s an MC I know over here, Buggsy, and he’s got quite an intricate flow, he can go double-time, all of that. But he does it all from memory, he won’t write any of it down.
Really? Wow.
Yeah, I’ve seen him before he’s about to go record and he’s literally writing the verse in his head, then he’ll go and spit it flawlessly and then that’s it. Done. It’s madness. So yeah, it’s interesting how people have different approaches to these things.
Yeah, definitely.
In the notes for Anjelitu, it says you wrote half the songs when your energy was in a bad place and the other half when it was in more positive territory. Do you mind me asking what caused that dip and what you did to bring it back?
Yeah, you know I was thinking about it more and talking about it more lately, and I actually realised that my previous project, Don’t Feed the Monster, was where I came face to face with a lot that was going on inside my psyche. I started to do a lot of inner work that I had avoided, facing a lot of delusion and denial. I had some self-acceptance going on, but also doing a lot of dream journaling, and paying attention to how I’m treating people. You know, really starting to hold myself accountable for lots of different things. I think the first joint from this EP that I wrote… like this project has been in the making for a while, since the end of me and Aesop Rock touring, or since the last time we toured, which I think was maybe 2017 or 2018. So, the first half I wrote before Don’t Feed the Monster, when I was really caught up. And what was really getting me caught up? Man, you know, I had some really terrible, unhealthy interpersonal relationships going on. There was some sickness in me with regards to misogyny, with regards to sexism and I had a lot of toxicity in me with regards to that. It was also my thinking… I mean… hold on let me take a second.
You take as much times as you need, man…
Well when I was growing up, I was pretty much taught from all different types of angles that I’m supposed to be a certain way when it comes to women, you know what I mean? I mean in rap first of all, straight off they tell you that loving and being in love is corny. I mean that’s so stupid. That’s the worst possible thing to say. And when I’m talking about rap, I’m only talking about the rap that teaches the garbage… but the rapping that is popularised and that we intake, teaches that garbage. It teaches a lot of violence, it teaches a lot of non-love, you know? It teaches so much of that. But I used to be more like this earlier on in my career and over time I started getting more distracted, I started getting more into money, I started getting more into lust, I started getting more into even ego and attention. Like I wanted the attention. I got into the social media thing, you know feeding my ego that way. These were all things that I got pulled into over a period of time, they started taking my focus away from my art, they started taking my focus away from my faith, you know what I mean? I wasn’t myself, man. I wasn’t eating right; I wasn’t eating good. I was eating mad cottage cheese, mad meat, trying to get crazy strong. I wasn’t concerned with how fit I could be, I was trying to be as strong as I could be, or look a certain way; there was a lot of vanity involved. So, all these things kinda congealed and led me to having the energy that I had on half the joints, whereas the other half was on the other side. I wrote them after Don’t Feed the Monster. And they’re different, the energy is different; I’m not cursing in half of them. It was a planned thing to put “Cow’s Milk” right next to “No Beef,” you know? One was from one side, one was from the other side. If you listen to what I’m saying on “Cow’s Milk,” this is a selfish person rapping here, that’s where I was at the time. But that’s not where I’m at anymore, thank goodness.
Well, I’m pleased to hear it, man. I sort of asked that question from personal interest, because it’s something I’ve dealt with a lot in the past myself, so I’m always interested in how people have brought themselves back from those sorts of struggles. So, thank you for being honest about it all.
Yeah, no doubt, man. A lot of reading, a lot of journalling, you know? A lot of conversations, a lot of crying, allowing those emotions. That’s what’s helped me out.
Yeah, that last one is something that needs to be promoted more, especially amongst men in general. Now, the whole EP is produced by Aesop Rock and obviously you guys do the Lice projects together as well. But he’s not an artist who does many collaborations, so I was wondering why you think your creative partnership has flourished so well?
Well, I mean I just think that I’ve been fortunate to tour with him so much. We did three big tours together, where he had me as support for him, and we became friends and we got to speak a lot. I think Aes is a private person, even though he’s a very friendly person, and so through all the time we’ve spent together, I’m grateful that I’ve been able to become a part of his life. I think of him as my friend, I think of him as my brother; that’s my main man. But developing that closeness and that friendship has provided an environment where we can knock stuff out anytime. You know, I’ll send him Homeboy Sandman joints and he’ll send me Aes joints, the music is something that we both love and we do, and because we’re always building all the time, it’s a rich environment for collaboration. I think it’s just personal closeness is what cultivated it. You talk about him being someone who doesn’t collaborate a lot, but in contrast to that, the previous record I did was with Quelle Chris, who does a lot of features. I think Q is someone who feels more comfortable branching his energy out in certain ways, whereas with Aes I think we benefited from all that time we’d spent together. I mean Aes has got a crazy verse on the new Droog record, he rocks a lot with Onry Ozzborn, so there are folks that he rocks with, but yeah, I guess he keeps a tighter circle and so I feel I’m grateful that I was able to become a part of that circle.
Yeah, man, I think we all were, so thank you. Humble Pi was another collaboration I was happy to see you involved with, and again, Edan isn’t someone who works with that many people. How did you guys first meet and end up working together?
Peanut Butter Wolf introduced us, many years ago before we ever did any work with each other. Then we did a show at one point, I think it was like 2014 maybe, and at that time I wasn’t super familiar with Beauty & the Beat and Primitive Plus, but people started to put me on, like “Yo are you really up on what this cat does?”. So that’s when my Edan education began. And one thing that was great with Edan was he lives within walking distance of me! And that EP was another one that happened over a long period of time, same with this Aesop EP, but we were able to take a walk, able to link up, able to cultivate a friendship. You know, Edan is another dude that people think of as elusive, he doesn’t release stuff all the time, but it was just another example of circumstances that lent themselves to our collaboration. Once we did that show, I became a fan of his, I guess we became mutual fans of each other and we were able to communicate, and I’m one of those people who likes to let people know I’m a fan of theirs. There’s not going to be anybody you find out I was a fan of when they die. And I knew working with Edan was going to result in work that meant a lot to me, so once that opportunity started to arise, I did all I could to foster it, you know?
I always like to ask people about their musical roots and I remember reading about your childhood, where you would listen to your dad’s jazz records and play your uncle’s saxophone, so I was wondering if there was any other musical path you ever considered before hip hop?
No there wasn’t any other path, even though I did play the saxophone for years when I was a kid and really enjoyed that, but I never took that too seriously. After a time I got into playing basketball more and kinda left the horn alone. But as far as my creative expression, hip hop has always been it. I do think it’s kinda silly these days that whenever a person of colour opens their mouth, it’s ‘hip hop’, but I don’t think that’s the case. I do see a lot of stuff being classified as hip hop, that doesn’t seem to me to be at all hip hop. I’ve got some music where it gets a little sing songy and I like have a little variety, but it never really deviates from hip hop.
I know that you also studied law for a while, but you said in the interview I read that you had no intention of ever pursuing it as a career. I was wondering what made you choose the subject in the first place?
I had been teaching high school for two years and then I decided I wanted to go back to school. I like school, I’ve always done well there. My father put a premium on academics as a kid, I had to do my homework before I was allowed to go out and play. And school’s great, they give you a place to live, you don’t even gotta go to class if you don’t want, you know what I’m saying? At that time, I had already graduated from undergraduate, so it was either go for a PhD or go for a law degree. And I was really trying to quit smoking weed at the time, I was really trying to find somewhere to decompress. I know it’s unusual to hear someone say they went to law school to decompress, but for me that’s really what it was. I was in New York City special ed. high school and you really gotta stay on point, like it’s a draining job. I mean I loved my kids, I still do – I was building with one of them yesterday, Gerard – but the job took a lot out of me. I needed some time to myself. So I was like, I’ll bury my head in a book and get some decompression. And I went to law school because it was easier for the personal statement, that’s really all it was. With the PhD personal statement, I would have to pick some specific category of academia and talk about why I love it. Or I can just go into law school, where you don’t have to pick if you’re going to be a criminal lawyer, an entertainment lawyer, a medical malpractice lawyer. It was just the easier personal statement for me to write.
And has it proved useful at all since you studied it?
I mean it proved useful at the time, because it gave me the space I needed. It was in my third semester at law school that I was able to write my first solo rhyme. I realised then that I wanted to devote myself to creating art and creating hip hop music. So, it was definitely very useful. I also gained confidence, so like I could read contracts myself, I could do a lot of my own communication, I’m competent at that; so that’s been helpful too.
It was in that same interview that you also spoke about declining to write about certain events that were affecting black people at the time – the police shootings, I think – because you didn’t feel it would change anything. I’m reading a book at the moment which touches on similar themes; essentially saying the majority of online activism is performative. Do you think there’s still hope for bringing about real change in countries like the US and UK, or have we tipped too far in the direction of gesturing?
That book you’re reading sounds very interesting to me, that premise, and I recently read Simulacra and Simulation, and I do feel that such a damaging thing for movements can be fake movements. So I do look very sceptically at easy activism. Activism to me doesn’t seem to have ever been easy, movements that I’ve seen historically that have been successful, always come at great cost. And I mean what even is online activism? Are you trying to change online society? But I do think change and improvement is coming, and will continue. It seems to me that there are still people who are willing to sacrifice, that do recognise the importance and I believe those people are here now, and I believe that their work and their sacrifices are going to be beneficial. So I don’t think it’s too late for change and improvement, stuff like that. I just think it’s a process and the process is ongoing. And the activism that isn’t really activism, is a challenge to the real thing, but I think the challenge will be met.
I’m glad you’ve got faith, man. That’s almost it from me now, but before I go have you got much else lined up beyond the EP release?
Yeah, lots of stuff, but I would just like to remind everyone about the tour. It’s all about the tour, the tour, the tour! It’s coming in September, please buy tickets, let people know it’s happening, help spread the word!
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Anjelitu is out Friday, August 6, via Mello Music Group. Purchase from here, and see tour dates here to book show tickets.
GingerSlim is a music journalist from Bristol, UK. His self-titled blog has been covering the UK and US indie rap scenes for over a decade, and he’s also a regular contributor to The Wire Magazine, Off Licence Magazine and The Find Mag. When he’s not writing about rap, you will usually find him with his face buried in a book, or talking to the birds. Follow him on Twitter and Instagram.