The pain of losing so many hip-hop icons in the past couple of years has been hard to take. And while never a full-blown household name, when Steve “Stēzo” Williams died in April, 2020, it was another huge blow for the culture. Stēzo’s long-time friend and fellow industry veteran, Chris Lowe, is helping keep the legacy of Stēzo alive, releasing The Last Dance last month, with contributions from some of rap’s biggest names. We recently spoke to Chris about the album, Stēzo’s role in the history of hip-hop, and more. We also bring you the premiere of the latest video from the album, which you can watch below.
It’s been a terrible couple of years for hip-hop artists dying too young. It felt as though, with so much happening last year, Stēzo‘s death was a bit forgotten about. For anyone who doesn’t know, tell them about his legacy in hip-hop.
Well let’s start here. Once upon a time when hip-hop was fun—back in the ‘80s—hip-hop dance evolved. Stēzo was one of the hip-hop dance pioneers. I will never forget when EPMD debuted Steve in their “You Gots To Chill” video and showed a split second of him doing the Steve Martin. The dance spread across the country like wild fire. This was also in part due to the video being aried on Yo! MTV Raps, which was the most famous video show back in the day. To this day, when you hear “You Gots to Chill” many of us immediately think of Steve’s dance. People still do it today. Shortly after all this hype, Stēzo went on to drop his debut LP, Crazy Noise in ’89.
And you and he go way back to your teenage years, right? Tell me about what you experienced together?
Steve and I were both deejays. That was our connection. Steve loved how I cut on the turntables. He was good too, but I had the style he loved. So we came up deejaying and then graf writing together and then Steve went on to breaking. We would meet up at parties and be the attraction for the night. Me on the turntables and him breakdancing on the floor. We were hip-hop kids from the way we dressed to the way we talked. Me, him and his cousin Dooley O. When breaking died out, Steve started freestyle dancing and making up his own moves. We would go to legendary hip-hop clubs like Latin Quarters and Union Square where he would become an attraction there too. This eventually led to him joining EPMD.
Stēzo was influential to hip-hop as a whole, but in particularly to the early growing scene in Connecticut. How was he able to mentor local artists and open doors for them?
Steve influenced local artists simply by showing others that it was possible to make it in hip-hop coming from Connecticut. You just had to be unique and have a style all your own. Of course you had other artists like The Skinny Boys out of Bridgeport, but we were from New Haven and Steve danced his way to a record deal. Connecticut watched Steve go from being a dancer to releasing his own album on Sleeping Bag/Fresh Records.
The Last Dance has an incredible list of artists paying tribute. How did it all come together?
It started with me just reaching out to all of Steve’s friends in the industry. Rappers he actually had history with, like Special Ed. Steve and Ed’s albums dropped the same year back in ’89. Some reached out to me, like Kangol Kid. Kangol had a little inside story to share which you peep on his “Hip-Hop Eulogy” interlude on the album. There were also people I reached out to that declined but overall everyone I reached to happily obliged. Steve knew a lot of heads. There were even rappers that missed the album because they were in the middle of projects like K-Solo and Ultramagnetic MCs. Others paid tribute through social media, like Questlove and DJ Premier. Eminem shouted Steve on Nas’s “EPMD 2” joint, so there was much love showed around the industry.
I’ve personally chatted on Twitter in the past about Stēzo‘s music with Just Blaze, so it’s great to hear his tribute message on, The Last Dance. It must have been very satisfying to get that one?
Blaze is my dog! A real hip-hop dude. Stēzo was a favorite of his. Prior to his death, Blaze would mention Steve in interviews right out of the blue. I can tell he had the album, he was a fan and we were fans of him. We knew Jay would snatch him up!
Aside from what we hear on, The Last Dance, was Stēzo actively working on more music in his final few years, and as such, is there much unreleased material?
I wish I had more on Steve but I don’t. Me and Steve took time off to pursue other things. He didn’t start recording again until his documentary surfaced. When the doc came out, he started to get calls to come out on tour again. I was like you gotta have new material, so we did five songs before he sadly left us.
What would you like for Stēzo‘s legacy to be?
Steve left his legacy and I’m satisfied with it. Stēzo was the first hip-hop dancer to step up to that mic and become an artist. No matter what you thought of his rymes, he still had the heart to take a shot. He even influenced other hip-hop dancers to grab the mic. And his legacy will forever be the “Steve Martin Dance.” Do you know how hard it is to make people all over the world do a dance? Stēzo did it. Whenever you hear “You Gots To Chill,” somebody is gonna do that dance.
Finally, what’s you favourite memory of the years you worked together?
I’m left with so many memories of Steve going back to our teens. Too many to name. Steve was a fun dude to be around, if he wasn’t pissing you off [laughs]. He was multi-talented so not only did we share music, but we were also barbers. It was Steve that got me into cutting hair. Before he passed, we even started a barber clothing line. Steve was one of the few friends I’ve known over 30 years, right up to his lasts days. That’s why I had to release this album so I can hear him anytime I want. Rest in heavenly peace Steve, I’m carrying your torch my dude.
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The Last Dance is out now and you can purchase it here. Interview by Grown Up Rap Editor Ben Pedroche.
Preservation is perhaps best known for his extensive work with Mos Def, his production for the GZA, Roc Marciano, Your Old Droog, Mach-Hommy, billy woods and countless others, and for being one half of Dr. Yen Lo with Ka. His most recent album, Eastern Medicine, Western Illness, is possibly his finest album yet. He recently spoke to Gingerslim about the project, and how it was influenced by Preservation’s time in Hong Kong.
How’s everything gone with the release so far? I’ve seen a lot of positive reviews in circulation.
It’s been good. Feels great to finally have it out on all platforms and physical. Specifically I’m really proud of how the limited edition double cassette came out. I always wanted to do a custom packaging with an exclusive element which is the beat tape.
I read that the album was created from a challenge you set yourself, where you wanted to make a project solely using records you had found while digging in Hong Kong. I was wondering what sort of records you had to work with initially and were they fairly typical finds for Chinese record shops?
A lot of the local records I was discovering in Hong Kong did not have much variation in styles of music, so it made it a challenge to find the right loops and pieces that would work with my style and the MC’s I was envisioning for the record. I had to listen to a lot of music before I found that one gem that popped out amongst the rest, so creatively it made me have to dig deeper. Most of the music from the 60’s and 70’s were based on what was popular at the time. Cha Cha, Go Go etc.. Most of the lyrics were sung in Mandarin with a lot of the records coming from Taiwan and Singapore. Then in the 70’s more songs were being recorded in Cantonese developing into Cantopop created in Hong Kong.
What had drawn you to Hong Kong initially?
I first went in 96 to visit a friend but later I came a few times to do shows with Yasiin Bey. Then in 2014 my wife relocated for her job to the Hong Kong office. Initially it was going to be a 6 month stay but ended up being 3 years. I always had a connection with the city growing up watching movies from there and being fascinated with the culture.
With regards to the album’s title, what do you view as the West’s illness and does the East really hold the cure / answers?
First and foremost my intention was to put what I consider the illest Mc’s from the west on the sounds of the East. During my 3-year stay starting in 2014, I witnessed the student umbrella protest movement in HK, mirrored with the negative news coming in from the West including Trump’s election, mass shootings and the continued police oppression and killing of black lives. The act of creating was my solace. I feel there is a different way of going about healing in the East through more handed down traditional methods and also a strong respect for family. Turn on the TV and it’s obvious no region in the world holds the cure, but for me this experience was therapeutic and hopefully that resonates with the listeners.
The list of guest spots is beyond impressive. Did you have a fairly good idea of who you wanted to work with when you started production, or did it evolve more organically as things progressed?
I created a list of people I knew and worked with in the past and also artists that I was listening to at the time I was living in Hong Kong, like Tree, Mach, Grande etc… Ka was instrumental in bringing the album together and making a lot of those connections with artists I didn’t know personally. Most of the time I make music with people I already have a relationship with but in this case a lot of the artists were inspiring the sound I was making for the album so I was open to making new relationships through the music.
Did the album lead you in any new directions that you hadn’t envisioned when you began working on it? Did you notice any shift in your usual production techniques or anything like that?
In the past, I was doing music with loops and no drums, then during the Dr. Yen Lo sessions, I was learning a lot from Ka about opening things up even more and letting samples just ride. My thing is layering and creating a collage of sound. For Eastern Medicine, Western Illness, I felt like I was bringing some of the elements I used to do before and after Yen Lo and trying to blend them including adding drum loops here and there. I think “A Cure For The Common” and “Lemon Rinds” capture that direction.
What is the Hong Kong hip hop scene like in general; is there much struggle with censorship or anything like that? For example, are there any politically-minded local artists making music?
Hong Kong has a large EDM scene stemming out of a heavy disco/club culture coming out of the 70’s and 80’s. Hip Hop isn’t that popular but has a small underground community. The Graffiti and street art element is very big and the B-boy scene got some things going on as well. There is a group called LMF from the 90’s still doing their thing. I think it was the only Chinese speaking Hip Hop group signed to a major label at the time. A lot of the younger mc’s now are doing the trap sound with some doing boom bap sound as well. As far as the lyrics go, I’m not exactly sure what most of the content is, but I would guess that some of it is speaking about certain day to day issues and political oppression. Censorship is definitely becoming an issue more and more especially with recent events including the student movements and the Hong Kong national security law.
Sticking with that subject, how did you and Young Queenz end up working together?
It was important to me to have a local Hong Kong artist be a part of this album and represent and draw the listener into the city. I was combing through YouTube videos of Hong Kong rappers, but couldn’t really find anyone that could match the vocal tones I anticipated would end up on the album. I asked Gary Leong who runs White Noise Records, a local vinyl shop that specializes in new music. He mentioned Queenz and hit me with his cd. It was heavily influenced by 90’s hip hop and you could tell he studied the craft – but it was his voice which stood out. Heavy and raspy, so automatically I felt that he could fit in the sound of the album. Turned out that a friend knew his manager and made the link. I went to go see him perform at one of the few underground music venues in Hong Kong. The place was packed to capacity and headlining was LMF, the veteran hip hop group. Young Queenz took the stage with his crew, Wildstyle records and did a whole trap set. I wasn’t expecting that kind of sound because of the CD’s boom bap sound but saw in the moment that he was a special artist taking full control of the stage and audience.
I was wondering if you have any aspirations to use this creative model in any other countries?
Hong Kong is a great jumping off city to visit other countries in the region and I took advantage of that during my stay. So, I’ll definitely be releasing some projects related to the music I was fortunate enough to acquire during my travels.
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Eastern Medicine, Western Illness is out now on Nature Sounds. Visit Preservation’s site for more about his music, and follow him on Twitter and Instagram.
Gingerslim has been a hip-hop fan since 1994 and has written for various blogs and websites since around 2006. During that time he has contributed to The Wire, style43, Think Zebra, Headsknow, Front Magazine and more. His main interests in rap are UK hip-hop and the underground movement in America, with a focus on Rhymesayers Entertainment and the once mighty Def Jux label. He lives in Bristol and has a beard. All other details are sketchy at best. Read his own hip-hop blog and follow himhere.
As the co-founder of Ruffhouse Records, Chris Schwartz has sold millions of units working with many of the biggest hip-hop artists of the 90s, including Lauryn Hill, Cypress Hill and countless more. His recently-released memoir, Ruffhouse: From the Streets of Philly to the Top of the 90s Hip Hop Charts, lifts the lid on the inner workings of the music business, alongside Chris’ personal stories of working with everyone from Schoolly D and Steady B to Nas and Wyclef Jean. We caught up with him to find out more.
You’ve launched a lot of artists from your hometown of Philly: Schoolly D, giving a young Questlove help early in his career, and later Beanie Sigel. Has it always been important to you to make sure you gave local artists a platform?
I did an interview with Ebro on Hot 97 in NYC and he pointed out something very interesting. He said Philly “incubates” its artists. I thought about that for a minute and the truth is “historically”, in Philly, when it comes to R&B, doo-wop, jazz, soul and hip-hop, there is definitely something in the fabric, a kind of incubation that brings the best of an artist into the public eye. The only artists from Philly between 1986 and 2004 where Schoolly D, Maja Figgas. Every other artist out of the 40 plus were from other cities and this is not because we went looking for them, it was more so because of the success of Schoolly everybody was coming to us. In the new 2019 Ruffnation, the hip-hop scene in Philly has evolved to a point to where we do not need to look very far, and on top of that I absolutely do feel a loyalty to Philly and the city has been good to us on many levels.
I’d like to talk more about Schoolly D. He’s always seemed like a mysterious enigma to me, and I loved the bit in the book about how your first meeting had you knocking on the door of his mother’s house, Schoolly answering in a towel and leaving you out in the cold until he’d finished his shower! I get the sense that story nicely sums up what he was like to work with?
No, actually he was cool as shit! The thing with him was when I met him, I was still fairly new to the game and he was kind of quite and reserved. But the truth is, he is a very animated guy funny and fun to be around. After I started Ruffhouse, he was off touring, doing movie soundtracks for King of New York and Bad Lieutenant, etc. and other projects like the Aqua Teen Hunger Force. We rarely saw each other for a very long time (4-5 years) and our wives had met and became friends and they would come over to go swimming with his son. They ended up buying the house next door to me, our daughters were born the same year, grew up together and graduated high school together so it has been really fabulous. Now I am doing Schoolly’s new album “That N#gg#’s Crazy!” and it was produced in analog using all 1980’s production techniques. I am very proud of it and I will say anybody who liked the first record two records (Schoolly D and Saturday Night! – The Album) will love this record because it is the BEST ALBUM he has made since!
Something I noticed looking at the incredible number of artists you worked with is how many of them later suffered tragedy and heartache: Chris Kelly dying young from a drug overdose, the drama before and surrounding Tim Dog’s death, Beanie Sigel going to prison just after This Time came out, the fate of Steady B and Cool C. It feels like a lot of these artists suffered from how shitty the music business is, and you talk a lot in the book about how cut-throat and unscrupulous it is. It must have been sad on a personal level to see what became of these people?
It absolutely was sad on so many levels. I can tell you this: signing to a record label, the costs above and beyond the recording advance (which has nothing to do with a labels’ commitment) during the era of physical product was immense and there was sometimes where you just had to cut bait but it is a human endeavor and in human affairs, you must constantly deal with awkward, sad, and sometimes tragic narratives. But we try our best.
I think they did something incredibly stupid and, what can I say, the “pull of the bling” was the reason. I think they thought they were doing something one time and probably thought they could do it, who knows. It was not a very smart thing to do and I was actually shocked.
You’ve also worked with another artist who is something of a mystery in the same vein as Schoolly D; Kool Keith. I know the release of Black Elvis/Lost In Space wasn’t exactly a smooth process, but in general what was it like working with someone like Keith?
Kool Keith, as you prob saw me tweeting recently, is the unsung creative genius innovator of hip-hop. I had tried to do the Dr Octogan record but I could not really enlist Sony’s support and I was convinced it would be the same audience as the kids who bought Cypress Hill. The Black Elvis/Lost In Space album was basically me wanting to be in business with Keith. Keith had the kid who managed him who, for lack of a better way for me to describe, just rubbed everybody the wrong way. He was a younger kid and he just had this very abrasive attitude and I am not sure why he felt he needed to go this route in his dealings with us at Ruffhouse because we were really laid back but it did cause some issues and the other issue as I recall was centered around label copy, but I could be wrong. I am also going to venture a guess in saying we as a label probably must have overlooked something as well.
Perhaps the most mysterious and reclusive artist of all those you’ve worked with is Lauren Hill. The media has built an image of her as cold, aloof and unreliable. But few seem to know her as deeply as you. As a close friend, what’s the real Lauren Hill like?
Media is TOTALLY WRONG – SHE IS NOT RACIST. She is the most wonderful, incredibly compassionate woman I have ever met and I will say this: all of that BS was because of something a Howard Stern fan had said. Howard repeated back the comment and for some reason, the words were attributed to her.
I’m hesitant to talk too much about Nas, purely because his story has been told so many times before. Does he feel a little like the one that got away though? It feels like you deserved to play a bigger part in his career than you eventually did.
No. We sold the contract to Columbia. He was brought to them first. They passed but said if you want to shop him to Ruffhouse we would support the signing. We signed him, I gave 5 songs to John Shecter and and Dave Mays from the Source, and told Columbia that Nas was going to blow up and they were going to really support him. So Columbia President Don Ienner was in trouble for allowing us to sign and he was in hot water with Tommy Mottola, so we as a favor to Don Ienner allowed Columbia to buy us out of contract. They thought originally the record would fail and if it did they could just absorb the loss through the pipeline revenues they owed us and if it was successful, then they would get half the revenues. But, since it was going to blow up, then they decide they made a mistake.
Someone I do want to talk about is DJ Muggs. You and he go way back to the early years of Cypress Hill, but Muggs is currently having one of the most creative periods of his career, dropping a lot of excellent independent albums with people like Roc Marciano plus several acclaimed underground emcees (Mach-Hommy, Crimeapple, Eto). Have you checked much of this recent output?
Yes. Roc Marciano, and also let’s not forget that Cypress Hill’s Black Monday is one of the greatest Cypress Hill records ever. I play it in my car NON stop!
I know there are plans to re-establish Ruffhouse. Considering how different the landscape of the music industry is compared to the 90s, have you had to adjust much or even re-learn what it’s like to run a label in the digital and streaming era?
Ruffnation is the label even though I own the name. It is a completely different landscape and I am dong an unscripted episodic TV show, “Occupational – Follow” which is a way I am looking to establish a market for these artist.
I am not so sure it was a cover-up, but rather something they chose not to advertise [laughs].
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Ruffhouse: From the Streets of Philly to the Top of the 90s Hip Hop Charts is out now. Purchase here. Follow Chris Schwartz on Twitter. Interview by Grown Up Rap Editor Ben Pedroche.
In the final part of our series celebrating 25 years of Fat Beats, we take a look behind the scenes by talking with some of the key figures in the business about how the company has evolved as a chain of physical stores, online, and as a distribution arm that has proven to be a vital outlet for independent hip-hop. Read below, and if you missed them, read our other Fat Beats anniversary articles here: DJ Eclipse interview, Ill Bill, Q-Unique and J57 interview.
Joseph “DJ Jab” Abajian: Fat Beats Owner/Founder
Firstly, congratulations on 25 years! Could you ever have imagined a quarter of a century ago that what you created would endure for so long and have such an impact on hip-hop?
Thank you. When I first opened I didn’t know what to expect but after the first six months I felt I had something special and was planning on major expansions. It all started in 1996 and we were on our way to blow up until I had a life changing experience in 2001 and had a change of course in life. I know we had and continue to have a big impact in the music industry and the Hip-Hop culture. I attest today’s independent rap music scene to a lot of work Fat Beats Distribution has done. We’ve paved the way for artist to do different types of deals for their art/product and showed a whole industry of independent artist how to be independent.
It felt like Fat Beats was always destined to be more than just a record shop. Was the New York store becoming a cultural hub for Hip-Hop something you envisioned from the start and therefore nurtured, or did it happen more organically?
The store becoming a Hip-Hop hub happened organically and was planned but not on purpose. My initial plan was to open a store for deejay’s, graph writers, B-boys and emcees. The logo and motto, “The Last Stop for Hip Hop” was specifically designed for the Hip-Hop nation. But, the first location in the East village attracted everyone that would go to the village which included every other alternative type of lifestyle to your everyday average 9 to 5 worker. In 1994 the commercial world started hearing about Hip-Hop a whole lot more than prior years but there was still a lot of fear of the culture from non-participants. Fat Beats was a place where these people can come and experience Hip-Hop without actually being part of the culture or doing any of the elements.
Last year saw Fat Beats return to physical retail with the reopening of a store in L.A. It’s an incredible achievement considering the fate of most record shops. What was behind the decision to take a dive back into having an actual store?
Initially we were planning on opening a small office in L.A., because we felt we were losing out on meetings and deals because a lot of people didn’t want to take the drive to Canoga Park where our office is due to LA traffic. One of my former employees who ran the website wanted to come back and open a Fat Beats boutique. We thought this would work with the idea of an LA office. Since Fat Beats Dot Com had it’s own space we figured it would make sense to put that operation in the new store location because I wasn’t convinced that there would be enough foot traffic to cover the expenses of a retail operation. Plus most of the employees do not live in the valley and have to deal with the excess traffic in LA. This is another location they can work out off. So far it has paid off. Our online business saw an increase, we got some foot traffic and have been able to throw events again and we’ve had dozen’s of meeting there.
If you had to pick your absolute best moment from the last 25 years, what would that be?
I’d have to say the closing of the initial retails stores in NY & LA. We had week long celebrations and so many artist and fans came through during that week. It was like seeing every artist we impacted come back to pay homage and it was cool hearing what they had to say about Fat Beats and how they felt from artist and fans. It took a huge weight off my shoulder and allowed me to concentrate on what was actually making money in the company. The distribution center and website took off after the stores closed and we made big moves moving out west.
Bert Haine: E-Commerce & Retail Manager
Fat Beats moving from a bricks and mortar operation to a mostly online one a few years back was inevitable considering how much the industry has changed since the first store opened 25 years ago. Tell me how the company went about building an online presence.
When our stores closed, we doubled down on our online efforts as we knew that would be the central way we could still directly interact with our customers. From there we took advantage of our already well-known brand and artist connections and utilized our position as a vinyl distributor to develop direct exclusives and other limited-edition releases and grow our following and online business.
We’ve talked in our other recent Fat Beats interviews about how the physical stores had an aesthetic quality that went beyond the music. How do you capture a sense of that in an online store? Obviously, you want a website that’s professional and works well, but at the same time you still need something authentically hip-hop, right?
To a certain extent we still try to keep things authentically Hip-Hop, obviously with respect to many of the releases and in-stores we focus on, but overall we keep our goals the same as any other business that cares about its customers; we constantly aim to improve user experience, keep our customers educated to all the new music available and strive to offer the best possible human customer service, which I think makes us stand out from other big box chains and web-stores like Amazon etc.
We sell a wide variety of records in our store and our website now that, ten years ago, would be pretty unexpected from a business like Fat Beats, but trends have changed and streaming has broadened musical tastes dramatically and our aim now is simply to offer great music on physical format, namely vinyl, with of course a deep understanding, love and focus on Hip-Hop.
The “vinyl resurgence” has been driven a lot by re-issue packages of classic records and limited edition runs of new music, which sell well as collector’s items. Presumably these are the types of products that bring in the most revenue these days?
Definitely, catalog releases and new exclusive limited edition runs of records drive much of the revenue but, whenever there is a hotly anticipated record, an LP like Freddie Gibbs & Madlib’s Bandana, or the first instrumental solo work by Daringer (Griselda Records’ go-to producer) we’ll do really well as has always been the case. On the whole there has just been a broadening of the base of people that consistently buy and listen to records over the last ten years, which has helped us gain back some of the ground we lost after DJs stopped really needing to buy records due to all of the controller/interface innovations.
What records are some of Fat Beats absolute top-sellers online since the e-commerce site opened?
I don’t have data over the lifetime of the business to know what have been some of our best sellers since we opened for business online way back in 2001, but I know when records like Madvillainy and Donuts dropped we were selling thousands of copies from the online store. But as of the last decade a few that have really sold above and beyond expectations have been; Kendrick Lamar’s To Pimp A Butterfly, Rev Shines & Conway’s recent exclusive 12”, JPEGMAFIA’s Veteran, and Blu & Exile’s classic, Below The Heavens.
Joe Dent: General Manager at Fat Beats Distribution
Outside of the physical stores and online retail, Fat Beats’ distribution arm has been hugely influential to the hip-hop scene over the last couple of decades. Tell me about how the service has evolved over the years.
Oddly enough, distribution is the largest division of our business and may be the one that is the least known to the average Fat Beats customer. Over the last decade we’ve seen major changes in the industry at large (the vinyl “resurgence” you often hear about) but as a company that has catered to the vinyl consumer since day one, we’ve strived to remain a go-to distribution option as more and more competitors have realized the viability of the format. In that sense, our evolution is ongoing.
By moving our headquarters from New York to Los Angeles five years ago, we’ve positioned ourselves in a great location not only by working with some of our favorite artists on a more face to face basis, but also within the vinyl manufacturing community in having several major pressing plants within 30 miles of our facility (right next door, in the case of Rainbo Records). Above all else, our goal is to be an extremely artist-friendly business in an industry that too often isn’t.
Of the many records Fat Beats has distributed, which are some of the ones you are especially proud of?
For me personally, the projects I recall most vividly are due to the people that were involved and the packaging or timeline challenges that may have been overcome in bringing them to life. That includes not only the artists or labels behind the releases themselves, but the pressing plants and printers as well.
Blu & Exile’s Give Me My Flowers While I Can Still Smell Them, the box set reissue of Black Moon’s Enta Da Stage, and most recently Masta Ace & Marco Polo’s A Breukelen Story are some of my favorites.
You offer pretty much a full service to get an artist’s music created, marketed and available. That said, has the relative ease at which anyone can now get their records/tapes/cds manufactured and then self-distributed via their own site, or Bandcamp, made distribution less of a viable business?
Generally speaking, it hasn’t. But the distribution model is not a one size fits all approach and there are plenty of artists who are successfully selling exclusive releases in their own webstores and are satisfied with that. As a company born out of brick and mortar retail, we still wholeheartedly believe in the value of the independent record store on a worldwide basis in addition to various exclusive projects. And because in many cases we are absorbing the roles of a traditional record label, manager, designer, and PR team in additional to simply packing and shipping, we feel our value will always be there if we are willing to adapt to an artist’s specific needs.
Speaking of Bandcamp, a couple of months ago they started offering manufacture and fulfillment to artists. Is this something you see Fat Beats moving into?
Pressing, wholesale distribution and D2C fulfillment are among the core services we currently offer to our partners. But because we are a true independent distributor, we are focused on offering personalized attention to our growing artist and label roster rather than an open-door crowd funded service. But we’ll always have our ear to the ground as times change.
The iconic Fat Beats is currently celebrating 25 years in the hip-hop industry. As a retail outlet, label and distributor, the company has supported some of the finest independent music over the last quarter of a century, helping many of rap music’s biggest artists along the way. In the first of our series of features marking this epic milestone we speak to DJ Eclipse, who has worked for and been associated with Fat Beats since the beginning, ahead of this weekend’s Fat Beats 25 Anniversary show in Los Angeles.
It seems like everyone came through the doors of Fat Beats at some point in their career, from ‘90s veterans and indy rap icons all the way to Eminem and Kanye West. Give us some of your personal highlights from the in-store appearances and freestyle sessions you were there for?
One thing you have to understand about our scene is that maaaaaaaad people were nice! Obviously some better than others, but on a whole there were so many talented people that came through Fat Beats or just the indie movement that was happening in NYC in the ‘90s. Nine times out of ten who “made it” was less based on the individual’s talent and more based on the break they caught. If you would have asked me if I thought Kanye would have become as big as he is now based on his Fat Beats appearance I would have said my money is on Al Tariq or Black Attack (who Ye came with). There were too many people that were dope during that era.
Some of the best sessions at the store were when fellow emcees came to hang out with people that worked there (like ILL BILL or Q-Unique). At any given time a cipher might start up with Bill, Q, El-P, Last Emperor, A.L. Skills, Breeze Brewin, etc. A lot of the Rawkus’ artists had great in-stores like Shabaam, Kweli and L-Fudge. Other dope ones were KRS-One (who basically gave an on-the-spot lecture to the crowd for the whole time he was there), RZA, Psycho Realm, Mix Master Mike & Non Phixion, Immortal Technique…..but the biggest in-stores we ever had were Gang Starr (twice) and Eminem. Lines for them were down the block and around the corner.
Being part of a place that gave so many talented artists a platform, is there a particular emcee who blew up thanks to Fat Beats that you are most proud of?
“Blew Up” is a hard word to use because although most probably didn’t reach Eminem’s status many have made careers out of music. And I don’t think Fat Beats can take any credit solely for anyone’s success, but Fat Beats definitely played a part in helping artists like El-P, A-Trak, Black Milk, Dave One (Chromeo) and ILL BILL just to name a few. But more importantly than even helping one person was the field that we created for everyone to play on. During that time everyone was still itching to get a major label deal. We started stepping to artists and telling them stop waiting to get signed. Let’s press up your record and distribute it. The profit splits for artists automatically became a whole lot better. We weren’t trying to own the music. That stayed with the artist. We turned all this energy into a movement and with the help of the artists and people like Stretch & Bobbito who were playing the music it took off.
On the flipside of that, are their any emcees or producers stocked at Fat Beats that you were surprised didn’t blow up?
Definitely felt like Last Emperor and Natural Elements should have gone further. They were and ARE so dope, and at that time they had a lot of people checking for them. Emp got signed to Aftermath and we were all rooting for him. But once Dre picked up Eminem I think Em became Dre’s focus and other signees were left on the shelf. NE went to Tommy Boy who were trying their hand at picking up indie artists, but just like Emp, NE’s album got shelved for whatever reason. But like I said, it’s not always the most talented that move forward. Sometimes the universe has it’s own plans.
Music aside, Fat Beats definitely appealed to rap heads on an aesthetic level. The shop was basically everything you picture an independent hip-hop record store should look like: racks of 12”s, walls covered with signed record sleeves, posters and flyers, music pounding over the system, and staff who really know their shit. Were you guys conscious from early on that people would see it as way more than just a record shop, and as such was it something you tried hard to capture?
Well the vision Joe had from the start was to build a home for Hip-Hop heads to come shop. As far as how it all came together I think that was more organic and just part of our own personal makeup. We were all DJs or MCs or B-Boys. We all collected stickers, posters, vinyl, etc so when you walked into a Fat Beats store you were literally seeing our stash on the walls (in the beginning). And as the store started getting more of that stuff more went up on the walls and ceiling. The first Fat Beats location was basically like a DJs bedroom set up. Except there was vinyl for sale on the walls. And the floors. And anywhere else we needed to stock it to fit.
One Fat Beats story I’ve always loved is the ones about Percee P, there on the sidewalk selling tapes outside of the store. It was dope how that situation ended up giving his career a second wind. I’m curious about how you guys felt about his consistent presence right outside the store?
I love Percee, but never liked him or anyone else selling music in front of the store. I’d always tell all of them go down the block to the corner or even just move to the sidewalk by the curb. Standing directly in front of our door turned so many people away from coming into Fat Beats towards the end. It wasn’t just a digital revolution that killed Fat Beats it was the numerous “artists” that basically harassed people coming in and out of the store to get them to buy something from them. I had people tell me that they would cross the street to walk past Fat Beats if headed in that direction just to not be bothered by them.
It feels as though Fat Beats caught a moment in time that we’ll probably never see again. Downloading and streaming happened and record shops died. There’s a resurgence for sure, but pop-up shops and a lot of these new stores seem too clinical and gentrified, and the even the records are often just overpriced re-issues. Do you think we’ll ever see something like the original Fat Beats again?
Nah, that era is gone. The brand lives on to deliver the goods to the people via fatbeats.com and Fat Beats Distribution, but the era of physically going out to a store and hanging out and networking is a lost pastime. You have to remember we were in our 20s then. This was pre-internet. You HAD to do all this stuff. You had to go to a store to buy music. You had to go to an event to see/hear the music you were into. You had to go see your friends to catch up with them. Our generation is too old now to have the free time (or money) to do the things we did then and the younger generation is coming up with access to everything at their fingertips so they don’t have the need or want for that same experience we lived.
Lastly, tell us your top five 12”s that Fat Beats have distributed over the last 25 years.
Big L – “Ebonics”
Missin’ Linx – “M.I.A.”
Mos Def – “Universal Magnetic”
D.I.T.C. – “Day One”
Bumpy Knuckles – “A Part Of My Life”
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The Los Angeles Fat Beats 25th Anniversary show takes place this Saturday (August 10) at The Regent Theater, featuring Dilated Peoples, Elzhi, Tha Alkaholiks, Blu & Exile, J. Rocc and many more. Get tickets and find out more here. Follow DJ Eclipse and Fat Beats on Twitter here and here, and Instagram here and here. Interview by Grown Up Rap Editor Ben Pedroche.
One of the most respected DJs and producers in hip-hop, Rhettmatic has been a fixture of the L.A. scene for decades through his solo work, as part of the Visionaries collective and as a member of the Beat Junkies. He recently talked to Matt Horowitz about projects new and old, production technique, touring with Dilla and more.
Following your 2011 collaborative mixtape/remix album/live EP, Bobo meets Rhettmatic, what’s next for your group, Cypress Junkies with Eric Bobo?
It’s been a hot minute since Bobo and myself have had a chance to work on new material. The last joint production we did together was for Rakaa’s (of Dilated Peoples) solo album, Crown Of Thorns, called “Rosetta Stone Groove” featuring Noelle Scaggs of Fitz & The Tantrums. We also toured Europe a few years ago but Bobo has been really busy with Cypress Hill since their new album dropped and has been touring mad crazy. But we’ve been talking still about doing some new music and getting back on the road, doing some spot dates in the near future.
How did yourself and Bobo initially meet and decide to form Cypress Junkies?
I met Bobo along with B-Real in the late 90’s when I was one of the DJ’s spinning on their Soul Assassins Radio Show at a local radio station in LA called 92.3 The Beat. Babu & Melo-D were also the other Dj’s; we would do their mixes live in between guests and comedy skits. This is around the time of the Cypress Hill IV album days. If you don’t know the history of Bobo, he is the son of the legendary Latin percussionist, Willie Bobo. He also used to play for the Beastie Boys (he even had a song named after him, “Bobo On the Corner” on Ill Communication before he became the 4th official member of Cypress Hill), as well as doing production for Psycho Realm. Anyways, he was working on a solo album called “Meeting Of The Minds” and he always wanted to do a DJ/percussionist song. We’d become friends already because of my stint on the Soul Assassins Radio Show, but I was honored he asked me. The song was called “Bobo Meets Rhettmatic”. When we performed the song at his release party, we realized that we might have something here. Then we were asked to perform for a benefit show in Los Angeles, and ended up being the headliner. We restructured our show to be more of a live element with more emphasis on the synergy between a DJ and a percussionist, and as we performed, we were really surprised by the response we got. Hence, “Bobo Meets Rhettmatic” was born; which eventually changed to Cypress Junkies (Cypress Hill/Beat Junkies affiliation). It was a big honor with B-Real giving us the official blessing.
I’ve heard rumblings a new Visionaries album is currently in the early stages of creation, correct? What can you potentially tell us about your upcoming return?
Yes, the Visionaries are working on a new album. It’s been 13 years since our last album “We Are The Ones”, which dropped in 2006. A lot of our core fans have been asking us to make a new album but everyone got busy with their own individuals lives and music careers. Both Dannu & Key-Kool have families, LMNO has a couple of solo projects out along with having a new baby, as well as 2Mex & Zen having their own projects out. Plus 2Mex had his own health situation that he needed to take care of; he had one of his leg amputated because of diabetes a few years ago. Now he’s still moving forward with full force and living life. Me personally, I got really pretty busy with the Beat Junkies. The Visionaries have done shows here and there but we never really worked on a new group album just because whether we realized it or not, we needed a break as a group (or at least for me personally), even though we’re family.
As for the new album, we are tentatively calling it “Vintage”, as a return to our roots of just making music for fun and not overthinking things. The difference between this particular album and our other albums; I will be doing all of the production, where it used to be Key-Kool and myself being the chief producers and having our regular family of producers such as J.Rocc and Babu, to name a few. I like to think in the last 5-10 years that I’ve grown and improved as a producer compared to my past production. The guys always wanted to make a new album, but for me personally, I wasn’t really ready just because I was burnt out and wanted to expand more as a DJ, an artist, a producer, as well as a person. So to be transparent, the guys were really waiting on me to work on new material. Besides me growing as a human being, a DJ and a producer, a lot of family, friends, and even our heroes were passing away as well as dealing with our own situations separately. We were all getting older. In 2017/2018 is when we started working on new material and just learned how to record as a group again with no expectations, and have fun making music together. We’re almost finished….hopefully it will drop by the fall/winter of 2019, God willing. If not, at least some new music this year to set up the new album for the top of 2020.
In adittion to Cypress Junkies, Visionaries & Beat Junkies, you’re also, part of The Joint Chiefs with Frank Nitt (Frank n Dank.) What’s the current status of this project?
Frank is my brother! I met Frank n Dank at the Jaylib “McNasty Filth” video shoot. We’ve became real good friends during the time since I DJ’ed for Dilla in Europe for his last tour ever. It was really fun when we made the Joint Chiefs album; basically Frank just crashed at my crib for a whole week just to work on music. Each day, I would work on beats in one room while he was playing Nintendo in the other room, then when I finished with a beat, I would show it to him, he’d start writing then we would record. After the session, we would get “enhanced” while listening to the finished product, then go out to the clubs just to take a break, then we would repeat again the next day. We basically would record two songs a day. We’ve talked about doing a follow up but we both are busy with our own schedules. The last joint we did together is a song called “Classic” that I produced for his solo album Frankie Rothstein on Delicious Vinyl in 2015. Besides his own solo projects as well as the Yancey Boys and Frank n Dank albums, he’s currently in charge of the California chapter of the James Dewitt Yancey Foundation as well as still being an artist on Delicious Vinyl. We’ll definitely going to work on new music soon in the near future.
I’ve been releasing music for free on my Birthday (May 10th), whether an album or a mix, for the last 10 years as a way of saying thank you to everyone that has been following my DJ/producer career, and just as a way to promote my catalog and progress as an artist/DJ/producer. With Loops, Chops, Beats, & Vibes Vol. 2, I wanted to a little something different when I dropped this on my birthday this year. I wanted to actually treat it like an official album versus giving something away for free, so I actually sold the album instead and made an official music video for the project. I made a video to the joint called “West Coast Vibrations (An Ode To Souls)”, which is a flip of the original sample that was used on Souls Of Mischief’s 93 Til Infinity, hence the tribute to Souls Of Mischief. I even wanted to shoot the video in the same vibe or essence of 93 Til Infinity, except highlighting Los Angeles and some of the cities that make up Los Angeles County. The video was shot and edited by Dj Underkut of Open Format LA, and he did a great job! I was really surprised and honored by the response for both the album and the video – it really meant the world to me that people went out and supported this album. That was definitely a great birthday gift to me for turning 50, and it tells me that I’m still doing something right. So everyone that purchased this album, I truly thank you from the bottom of my heart!
How would you say your process, approach, sound, style, etc. for Loops, Chops, Beats, & Vibes Vol. 2 differs from that of 2018’s Loops, Chops, Beats, & Vibes Vol. 1?
The approach to Volume 2 in terms of how the production was done is a combination of how I made the beats on Volume 1, by doing a cut & paste style strictly using Pro Tools only and making beats on the Propellerhead Reason program like I did on my Rhett Got Beats album. When I made Volume 1, I originally wanted to challenge myself and go back to making beats on my MPC2000 but it wasn’t working; so when that wasn’t working, I tried to turn on my SP1200 machine, but that wasn’t working either. I didn’t want to make beats on Reason because that’s what I’m currently using right now, but I still wanted to challenge myself for the fuck of it. I decided to try make beats on Pro Tools by doing a lot of cut, paste, and layering. I went digging for records for a good month and just basically pick any record from the stash I bought, record it on Pro Tools and just basically start chopping away. It was more tedious but I had a lot of fun doing it. With Volume 2, I wanted to continue the tradition, but I also have been making beats on Reason that I really liked and I didn’t want to put them to the side; plus I was also on a time constraint. So I decided to put some of my Reason beats that I liked a lot (plus the Nipsey Hussle tribute track that I made last to finish up the album), made a few tracks with the same Pro Tools procedure, and arranged them together so I can beat my personal deadline. I’m very proud of the end product, if I do say so myself! [laughs].
I know you were J Dilla’s touring DJ for a string of shows through Europe with Frank n Dank and Phat Kat; happen to have any particularly memorable stories from your time spent on the road with Dilla?
When Dilla was still alive and living in LA, I always told him if he ever needs scratches from me, I got him. And we actually talked about doing some work together. He always had love for the Junkies, especially for J.Rocc. J.Rocc is the 3rd member of Jaylib so it makes sense that he was Dilla and Madlib’s DJ. Dilla had a real small circle of people that he would hang out with and trust in LA; I was very lucky to be considered to be part of that circle in his last years. Originally Dilla asked J to go out with him on tour to Europe, but he couldn’t make it because he was scheduled to go out on the road already with Madlib. When I got the call from Dilla that he wanted me to go out on the road with him, Frank n Dank and Phat Kat, I said let’s go. I hit up J to thank him for recommending me for the job, but J said he didn’t even say anything to him – that was all Dilla’s idea. I was shocked and honored. Around this time as well, I knew he was sick, but I didn’t know to what extent until we met at the airport. To tell you the truth, the whole tour was memorable to me because Dilla personally asked me to be his tour DJ, plus I was able to bond with him, Mama Yancey aka Ma Dukes (Dilla’s Mother), Frank N Dank, Phat Kat, and Dave New York (Dilla brought him along as well). We all didn’t know this was going to be Dilla’s last tour ever, but I think he already knew and he wanted to do it for the fans regardless of his health. I also think that this was his way of saying this is our chance to work together….I will never forget this experience for the rest of my life. Thank you, Dilla!
What’s the current status of your long-time crew, The World Famous Beat Junkies or any of its affiliated entities?
The Beat Junkies are still going strong. We celebrated our 20 Year Anniversary in 2012 by doing shows in Los Angeles, New York, San Francisco as well as in Europe and Japan. We were really surprised how many fans, young and old were still excited to see us perform and how much people are still checking for us even though we never stopped. Because of that, we decided to get serious in terms of building our own business by relaunching our merch such as shirts and hats, and launch the Beat Junkies Digital Record Pool (www.beatjunkies.com). From there, we were able to launch our very own radio station, Beat Junkie Radio in conjunction with Dash Radio, a free app that was designed and founded by Dj Skee (www.dashradio.com/beatjunkieradio). I actually have my own radio show on the station called “Soundcheck” that airs live every 2nd & 4th Tuesday. I’ve been lucky to have guests such as Diamond D, Agallah The Don, Blu & Exile, MED, Defari, as well as Dirty Diggs, Supreme Cerebral, & many more. When we celebrated our 25th Anniversary in 2017, we were figuring out what would be our next business venture. From there we started our own DJ school called the Beat Junkie Institute Of Sound in the City of Glendale, Ca. (www.beatjunkiesound.com). We’ve been open for 2 years now and the school has been slowly growing. If you asked us 5-10 years ago that we would have our own DJ school & become instructors, we would’ve looked at you crazy. In January 2018, we officially launched Beatjunkies.tv (www.beatjunkies.tv), our online DJ school, which is an extension of the Beat Junkie Institute Of Sound. Everything that we teach at our school, we also teach online; it’s for those who want to learn how to DJ from us, but either cannot make it to our school or live very far, or for those who want to learn at their own pace. We’re still working on other projects, either as a crew or as individuals, but by the grace of God, hopefully we can keep on going till the wheels fall off.
I’m personally a big fan of your 2016 release, Circa 2004: Blaccmatic with Aloe Blacc! Although, I’ve always been curious: how exactly did this collaboration come to be?
Thank you very much, that means a lot. As the title suggested, the Blaccmatic album was made in 2004. A lot of fans of Aloe Blacc, the singer, don’t know that he’s a talented MC as well, and is in a group called Emanon with producer extraordinaire Exile (Blu, Fashawn, King Choosey). Around this time, Aloe was branching out working on his own material while Exile was in the beginning stages of working with Blu. For myself, nobody knew me really as a producer except for my work with the Visionaries, and I wanted to expand and work with different artists. Aloe and myself talked about doing some work together and then finally he said “just give me a beat CD”. Then one day while I was working at Fat Beats LA, he stopped by and gave me a CD with “Aloe Blacc & Rhettmatic” written on top of it. When I got home to listen to it, I was blown away because he practically made a whole album of all the beats I gave him. One of the songs “Find A Way”, had someone singing, me not knowing that it was Aloe singing himself. When I asked him who was singing, he told me it was him….I was so blown away. Then right there, this was a star in the making. That particular song was supposed to be featured on his Stones Throw debut album Shine Through but didn’t make it, but it did make it on the B-Side of the “I’m Beautiful” 12″ single. On a side note: I also let my dear friend and producer extraordinaire Dj Khalil (Self Scientific, Aftermath) hear “Find A Way” and he immediately asked me who the artist was. He also bugged out when he found out who it was….”You mean, Aloe as in Aloe Blacc from Emanon?? I need to work with him!”. I was able to connect them both and then a couple of years later, they collaborated on a song you might’ve heard or seen on a Beats By Dre commercial called “I’m The Man”.
We never got to officially put the project out because eventually Aloe got signed to Stones Throw and I started working on the Visionaries’ We Are The Ones album. Over the years, we have talked about putting it out but then eventually, Aloe became the talented and respected singer that he is now. When I decided that I wanted to put it out, I asked Aloe permission first to see if he was down with the idea of releasing the project, he said yes, as long it was a free download. He still wanted people to hear our project. When I released the project in 2016, we had such a positive reaction. Fans of Aloe Blacc the MC were happy to hear an unreleased project with him spitting bars; fans of Aloe Blacc the soul singer, didn’t even know the history of Aloe as an emcee and were blown away. Really glad that people got to listen to this project and the positive feedback was the icing on the cake.
I know you’ve worked with everyone from Guilty Simpson to Ras Kass… but do you have any currently vaulted/unreleased collaborations you’re looking forward to the hip-hop-loving world hearing one day?
Who knows, that’s a good question. I do have some joints in the vault that I did with J-Ro of Tha Liks and Defari, K-Solo, an unreleased Key-Kool & Rhettmatic song & some other artists that I worked with in the early 2000’s that never came out officially. If my small core of fans really want to hear some old/unreleased material of mine, then I might put it out….or maybe redo it over. But I do know I have more work to do….
Matt Horowitz has been a hip-hop fan ever since he first heard Wu-Tang Clan’s Enter The Wu-Tang (36 Chambers) back in the mid-90’s, which positively or negatively changed his life ever since, depending on who you ask. He single-handedly runs online music publication The Witzard, and has been fortunate enough to interview Eothen ‘Egon’ Alapatt, Guilty Simpson, Ice-T and Mr. X, Dan Ubick, Career Crooks’ Zilla Rocca & Small Professor, Cut Chemist, and J-Zone, amongst countless others. He enjoys writing about and listening to hip-hop, Punk/Hardcore, and Indie Rock on vinyl with his lovely wife, while drinking craft beer, red wine, or iced coffee. To paraphrase both Darko The Super and the Beastie Boys: “Already Dead fans, they want more of this… I’m a Witzard like my man Matt Horowitz!”. Follow Matt here.
Author Will Ashon recently published the excellent Chamber Music: Wu-Tang and America [In 36 Pieces]. We spoke to him about the journey of writing a work as masterful as this, his time as head of the iconic Big Dada Recordings, and of course, the Wu.
What’s fascinating is that the book is about the Wu-Tang Clan, but also isn’t. It uses Enter the Wu-Tang (36 Chambers) as a framework for what is essentially the history of black America. Did you always intend for the book to be so broad, or did it start out as more of a simple celebration of a classic album?
It was never going to be a simple celebration of a classic album because my brain doesn’t work that way. On the other hand, I’m not sure I intended for it to be as broad as it worked out! I think that hip hop is a connective music – it works by collaging together and, in the process, commenting on, other musics, ideas and stories, so any book on hip hop kind of has to do the same thing, too. I wanted it to be as wild and outward looking and baffling (and hopefully as exhilarating) as the album it was about.
Art can be interpreted in many ways, meaning different things to different people. Did you ever fear though that interpreting and attaching meaning to specific lyrics might sometimes come across as tenuous, trying to find something that isn’t there? You allude to this a few times in the book in the latter chapters, especially with Ghostface lyrics.
Haha! Nah, I didn’t worry about tenuousness. Ghostface’s lyrics, in particular, are so weird and impenetrable that they demand interpretation. And isn’t that what fans do? Try to figure out what their favourite rapper is saying and what it means? Overall, my philosophy when writing a book is that I’d rather be interesting than right, by which I mean I’d rather make readers think than just tell them stuff they already know and reinforce their already-held views. Lyric interpretation is part of this – if you think I’m wrong, that’s great. At least it means you’re engaging with those lyrics. And reading a book should be all about engagement, not being spoon-fed “FACTS.”
I also notice how you, wisely, avoid looking too deep into some of RZA’s philosophies and ideas from The Tao of Wu. Was it hard to avoid certain rabbit holes?
I love a good rabbit hole. Rather than avoid them, I prefer to jump in and dive so fast I blast right out the other side. As far as I can see, the whole book is in part an interpretation of RZA’s philosophies. But I don’t bother setting them all out exactly as they’re set out in The Tao of Wu because TheTao of Wu already exists for that. (Plus, I’m writing about a record released 20 years before The Tao of Wu).
Being a writer myself I know just how much research a work like this requires. How long did it take to write, and where did your research take you?
The book took me a year to research and write, flat out (plus my thirty years of listening to and thinking about hip hop more generally). That was much quicker than I would’ve liked, but I had an artificial deadline set by the upcoming 25th anniversary of the album’s release. As a result, I really went at it hard – forty hour weeks in the British Library, trying to get through and assimilate all the information I needed (and some that I didn’t). It’s the most intense period of work I’ve ever done on a book and it was pretty exhausting.
In terms of being taken somewhere, I also went and spent time trudging round Staten Island, getting a feel for the place – its atmosphere and geography. That was essential in all kinds of ways – I didn’t realise, for instance, that the spot where Eric Garner was killed by the police was so close to where the first Wu Wear store was located. These kind of connections are what animate the finished book.
Being white, and from the UK, I sometimes struggle to write about the history of black American music and culture, for fear of coming across as a phoney. I noticed that you seem conscious of this in the book too. Is it hard to write authentically about things you never actually experienced first hand?
I’m not too worried about authenticity – which, as I explore in the book, is a pretty loaded concept anyway. I think it’s more important to worry about being responsible in what I do. That means being clear and open about the perspective that I’m coming from and it means interrogating my own assumptions. It means, in effect, abandoning “objectivity” and instead focussing on love.
Having said that, I suppose being an outsider also allows you to provide a different perspective?
Yeah maybe – although it’s arguable that being an outsider to an outsider culture makes you a cultural insider at a broader level. To put it another way, you can’t use that as an excuse and you certainly can’t privilege your perspective over another. I think, once again, it’s best just to be honest about where you’re coming from and then it’s up to the reader to decide what they make of that. Nobody has to buy the book!
The response to the book had been very positive. But I’m curious to know if you’ve had any feedback from the Wu or those in their circle. Do you know if any of them are aware of the book?
No feedback, no. The publisher sent it to the management of a couple of the members but beyond that I have no idea.
I’d like to talk about Big Dada. You founded the label and ran it for several years. Tell me about that experience.
That’s a big question! It was fifteen years of my life (a little more, in fact), so it’s hard to sum that up in a few sentences. We tried to change the landscape for Black music in the UK and to some extent we achieved that and to some extent we failed. I’m really proud to have worked with all the artists I worked with, even when they hated me or my ideas (which they sometimes did). But running a record label is hard, unrelenting work, most of the time you don’t achieve what you hoped for, and eventually I was ground down by it. I wish I’d managed to make it more sustainable without me but I don’t regret stepping away.
What are some of the releases from your time there you are most proud of?
There are so, so many. Not sure it would be fair to the others to pick out a couple. Suffice to say, I’m really proud to have released albums by Roots Manuva, New Flesh, Gamma, Infesticons, TTC, Ty, MF Doom (King Geedorah), cLOUDDEAD, Wiley, Spank Rock, Infinite Livez, Lotek Hifi, Busdriver, Anti-Pop Consortium, Diplo, Speech Debelle, Offshore, Congo Natty etc etc, right up to the last two signings of ‘my’ era, Young Fathers and Kate Tempest.
Lastly, considering how their last few albums have been mediocre at best, what would the perfect Wu-Tang Clan comeback album look like in your eyes?
Ouch, that seems a bit harsh. In all honesty, I’d rather hear a debut album by a group I’d never come across before which had the same levels of energy, inventiveness, aggression, humour, originality, street smarts and vision as “36 Chambers.” THAT would be worth seeking out!
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Chamber Music: Wu-Tang and America [In 36 Pieces] is out now, published by Faber & Faber. Get it here. Those in the UK can purchase here, published by Granta under the slightly different title, Chamber Music: About the Wu-Tang [In 36 Pieces]. Follow Will Ashon on Twitter. Interview by Ben Pedroche.
Few musicians are as wise, spiritual and deep-thinking as Brother Ali, which certainly makes him somewhat of a rarity in the world of hip-hop. The Rhymesayers Entertainment artist recently took time out from his European tour to speak to Gingerslim.
It’s coming up to a couple of years since you released your last album and we got that single last year; is there a new project looming?
There is…
*line goes dead then reconnects*
Sorry I lost you then, man.
Okay, are we back?
Yeah I think so, all I heard you say was “There is”, then the line went dead
Oh well maybe that’s for the best [laughs]. But yeah I started working on a new project and it’s very different from the last project – the way I’m writing it is different, the production is different, really the whole approach is different and so I’m excited about it. I’m not really wanting to say too much right now cos it’s still taking shape, but I hope to have it out by the end of this year.
That’s good to hear, man. Now, you’ve been quite vocal in previous interviews about some of the problems you’ve faced as an American Muslim; I was wondering how noticeable the impact of Trump’s presidency has been from that perspective?
For me personally it hasn’t really changed anything. The security people at the airport always gave me trouble and they still do sometimes, so that hasn’t really changed. I think the differences are for my wife, my daughters and for the community that I’m a part of. You know my ancestry is European and I’m an albino, but I was raised in African American and black culture, so sometimes people are unsure of my racial makeup, but for the most part if I have problems it’s because of the work that I do.
But for black and brown people, and those who small-minded people think look like Muslims, it’s dangerous. I mean not only from the authorities but from regular people who are from the dominant group, you know they’re poor, they’ve been financially oppressed, they’ve been used, but they’ve always been told “oh but you’re white and this is your country”, so pride in America is really pride in their group.
But now they’re losing that hope of whiteness and being an American, so when they say make America great again, what they mean is make white people great again. And then they see black people being proud as a direct threat to them, and also Muslims, you know anyone not completely bowing to them is a direct threat to what they want their life to be about. So it’s really difficult and because the president now is one of them, they feel completely confident acting really horribly – really bad character, really bad manners, being really violent. There’s a video that’s on Facebook of this grown man in a parking lot and he’s just screaming in the face of this black woman who’s pregnant. It’s really bizarre how empowered people are feeling now to be horrible cos they think they’re fighting for their country when they do that.
And how powerful a role do you see music playing in the act of resistance?
Honestly I’m not that impressed with it. I love hip hop music, I feel like I’m a part of the culture, but me being an underground artist who is a little bit of an outsider in certain ways, I’ve always looked at the landscape and wondered what’s the next thing? What should we be doing next and what are we not thinking about? What should we be focusing on? So when I came out in the early 2000’s, the popular narrative at that time was about triumph over adversity, so Jay-Z was leading it and 50 Cent, people like that – I came from nothing and now I’m cool and I’m rich and powerful – and that’s great, that’s a great story cos it’s true and it gives people hope, so I appreciate that.
So I was never against that, I’ve always okay, but what are they not saying? And so I made music about being vulnerable and then in the late 2000’s, I would say 2010, I put an album out and at that time people were celebrating extravagance and being really successful and rich, that was like the Rick Ross time, Watch the Throne, that type of thing. Kanye and Jay-Z were talking about black capitalism and black consumerism as a way out. So then I came out and said look most of us are poor, let’s just start from there. Were not living extravagantly, we’re actually going to tell the truth and we don’t just want to beat the capitalists at their own game. Not that I’m a communist but I’m saying hyper-capitalism, hyper-consumerism, that’s not a win for me – for us to be able to buy more than other people can buy and then say that that’s freedom.
But you’re still stepping on people and people are still suffering, so that you can have more; that goes against the grain. And now that Trump is the president, so many of the artists are now talking about prisons and all this stuff, but to me it just feels really anaemic, man. It’s not powerful to me, most of what’s being talked about. I mean Lowkey has always been talking about this, Akala has always been talking about this, Immortal Technique, Mos Def, you know you have artists who have always been speaking on this stuff. And I like hearing Jay-Z talk about it, I’m a big Jay-Z fan, but I just don’t think it’s really impacting the people.
So what do you think they could be doing, could they be doing more? Do you think it needs an alternative voice?
I don’t spend any time thinking about what I wish other people would do differently, but I really do like a lot of the emerging voices and so that’s really cool. But in terms of all the public political thinkers in America, I probably align most with Dr Cornel West. He’s a Christian and I’m a Muslim, but his idea of justice comes from a loyalty to being moral and there’s a spiritual dimension to being a moral person because the unseen virtues have to be more important to you than anything worldly, including power. So if it’s a pure Marxist idea about power, that basically starts with the same epistemology, the same metaphysics as secular capitalists, that basically say the world is all goods and resources and power to control those goods and resources, that’s what life is. So then we just fight over how to get power over those goods and resources, and that’s what winning is. I’m sorry, but I can’t with that. To me the unseen world of virtue is more important, to me virtue is more important than power. They’re both valid ways of looking at things, but that’s what I believe in. So that’s why when everyone’s making this political music that I already did, now I’m focusing on spirituality, which is not instead of or in lieu of, it’s not a bypass for the political and social reality, but it’s like how am I going to become the type of person that will deny myself material things because it’s the right thing to do.
It’s going to take something spiritual to do that and you’ve got to have the type of heart that can put virtue and other people before yourself. The modern conversation around power and revolutionary power, is not talking about that. Even modern spirituality, kinda like internet spirituality, it’s not about breaking the ego and that’s what real spirituality is about in all the traditions – in Hinduism, in Buddhism, that’s in authentic Christianity, authentic Judaism, indigenous peoples’ religion. It’s like look the human condition is we have beautiful hearts but we have ego. Ego will always command us to take from other people and to oppress other people, the ego is always going to want more, so we have to discipline the ego. But most modern spirituality doesn’t do that and so basically without doing that outer work, or the inner work to get your heart right, if the oppressed people got power now they would just become the new oppressors. And to me that’s not a victory, to most people that’s not a victory, but what’s the road map to be able to live with dignity in a way that is also virtuous? Virtue requires us to deny ourselves things that our ego demands. Like I should be able to have sex with whoever I want, why can’t I just grab a woman and have sex with her? Because that’s rape! Well okay then I have to tell my ego that this woman’s right to freedom of choice and freedom over her body, is more important than my desire, but I’m going to have to discipline my ego to get to that point.
And it’s the same with what’s wrong with consuming gold, if I want gold and it looks good on me? Well then you say what’s gold doing to South Africa, what are diamonds doing to West Africa? So if I had the money to buy gold and it looks good on me and people seem to think it looks good on me, there’s something spiritual that’s going to make me think that those people I’ve never met are more important than how good it feels for me to wear gold. So to me, that’s what my focus is and I can’t say what other people should do, but I listen to my heart and that’s what I believe.
That’s a really good perspective to have though. Now you’ve said before that each of your albums has been the result of the pain, growth and eventual healing that you’ve experienced, and to me your last album sounded like your most joyous one to date, so I was wondering if you feel fully healed now from whatever you went through before?
No, I think it’s always a process and I think that’s one of the things about real, genuine spirituality is that we know it is a never-ending process. But I will say when we’re early on that path, sometimes the narrative that spiritually immature people have is that they were once lost and now they’re found, or they used to damned and now they’re saved, but it doesn’t work like that [laughs]. Once you start going on the path it’s just like anything else, like now does Venus Williams think she’s the greatest she can ever be? No because she’s always going to be working on it until she can’t anymore and it’s the same with anybody who is really dedicated to something. Once you solve one problem, you just move up in problems and you realise there’s a much more nuanced problem that you couldn’t even know about because you weren’t wise enough to see it.
So do you feel like that sort of complacency is a problem elsewhere? Because that’s how I see it in music, I see some people who feel like they’ve achieved everything they can so they get complacent and then their art suffers as a result.
It can be a really traumatic experience to create without fear cos the reality is there is fear. So you do something that is really creative, you pour your heart into it and then people might just ignore it, or they might hate it. And I mean hating it is better than ignoring it honestly, but I know I’ve been through that and then it’s like why did I do all that? I kinda died internally to make this album and now it’s just another one with all the 50 million albums that came out and so I think at a certain point some people are like I’m not going to plunge the depths of my soul again if it’s not going to be received.
So people who have done that in the past, or they’re no longer in the spotlight, it’s really hard work doing that and so the average person isn’t going to keep doing it. I believe that’s a spiritual practice too, even if people don’t think that they’re religious. Like you listen to someone like James Baldwin talk about what it really means to create from a true place – it’s a death. So I think with musicians, maybe they did that once or twice and everyone celebrates them for it, but it’s hard to keep doing it. You know you can make a living off the spiritual war you fought 20 years ago and so you could just keep touring that album, people still like it so you can make a living doing that and honestly I feel like a lot of those people go to Europe, but it’s not fair to Europe and the UK because the artists from over there can’t do that. They gotta keep creating cos they’re basically being ignored on the global stage. How come everybody all over the world doesn’t know Akala, or doesn’t know Lowkey? Everybody should. There’s a million of these artists and I probably don’t even know most of them, but I really think it’s unfair because European people know what real music is. So I think it’s unfair that a lot of old skool hip hop artists just keep going over there and doing the same old songs over and over again. I mean I’m glad they’re making money, people seem to like it, that’s cool but it’s like they’re still living, they’re still learning, they’re still being a human being, what’s going on? We want to hear that, we want to hear what it feels like to be 55 year old and trying to figure out how long you can keep rapping.
Now speaking about Europe, you’re about to touch down over here for your tour. Do you feel any sort of different connection with the fans here, compared to those back home?
I don’t think that they’re different, but when we go round Europe and the UK, or around the world in general, there’s an understanding that our experiences aren’t identical and so like the interviews I do with journalists over there are always the best. Because they’re thinking I don’t really know what this person is about so let me really pay attention and listen to them, where as in the US there is this familiarity that I think can make us a little complacent and can make use feel like yeah I know what you’re about, we’re part of the same group and you’re probably saying the same things that someone else is saying, so it’s just a different level of attention. And artists are driven by a few different motivations, so some of them want control, control of their life and environment, they want to be able to do what they want to do, not what someone else is making them do. Some artists want power and that’s different cos power is the ability to be able to control other people.
Some artists, and it’s true with people too not just artists, some of them just want fame, they just want to be known. It doesn’t matter what they’re known for, it doesn’t matter if it’s true to them or not, they just want a lot of people to know who they are. For me – and again none of these are necessarily good or bad, it’s about what you do with them – fame is the one I respect the least. For me it’s about connecting and it’s about being understood, like I want to genuinely communicate and exchange with people. I want to listen and be listened to, so going to Europe there are smaller crowds than anywhere in the States and I don’t make much money, so the main reason for me wanting to go is because I know that people are listening! [laughs] You know what I mean? And ultimately I’m going to care more about that than making money.
So you’ve got the tour and then you’re working on the album; is there anything else on the horizon?
So my wife and I teach Islamic spirituality at home in Minneapolis, we have a weekly gathering that we do. I basically split my time between writing, recording and performing music on the one hand, then studying and teaching the spiritual path on the other and I’m really fortunate that we live a really simple life. Slug gave me really good advice when I bought my house, he said buy a house that you can afford to keep up even in a slow year, so you’re never a slave to your living expenses. So my family and I live in a small, simple house and I make enough off music so I can do the spirituality thing half the time and I don’t have to worry about getting paid to do that. I don’t have to try get donations or something like that, not at this stage and so it’s a really good life, man. I’m really happy.
Yeah that sounds very fulfilling, man. Well I know we’re running out of time so I’m going to leave it there, but it’s a pleasure to talk to you.
It’s a real pleasure to talk to you too, man.
I’ll be at the Bristol show next week, so maybe I’ll see you then.
Yeah that’d be great, I’d love to say hello to you in person.
Okay, man, well take care.
Thank you, brother, peace.
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Brother Ali is on tour across Europe until the end of March. Follow him on Twitter and Instagram.
Gingerslim has been a hip-hop fan since 1994 and has written for various blogs and websites since around 2006. During that time he has contributed to style43, Think Zebra, Headsknow and Front Magazine. His main interests in rap are UK hip-hop and the underground movement in America, with a focus on Rhymesayers Entertainment and the once mighty Def Jux label. He lives in Bristol and has a beard. All other details are sketchy at best. Follow him here.
86 Witness is a deeply personal album for producer Small Professor. He and Sean Price were already working on the project before P’s death in 2015, making this a genuine Sean Price album, not something stitched together from disparate, archived sound files. Its a worthy tribute to one of the sharpest writers in music, and a fine addition to the catalogs of both artists. We recently spoke to Small Pro about how the album came together.
Considering it’s been three and a half years since we lost Sean Price, 86 Witness must have been a long time in the making?
The album wasn’t really that long in the making…most of it was done in 2015 before P passed away, and a few features and bells and whistles were added after his passing up through the end of 2016. It’s just been a very long time coming.
How was it put together? Did you get to work with P in the studio before he passed, or have you had to work through vocals and construct it piece by piece?
The album was constructed mainly through the internet – sending verses and beats back and forth to P’s engineer. I’d send beats, he’d send back a rough demo, and I’d do additional changes once I got his vocals…that’s how the whole album was created.
There must be a certain amount of pressure that comes with producing an artist posthumously and making sure you do justice to their legacy?
I definitely felt a little pressure but this was a bit different than your usual posthumous release because I knew P thought what we had done so far was quality, so I felt like if it was good enough for him, I’d be ok with however it was received upon its release.
The album has 1986 as a running theme. How did that concept come about?
The 1986 theme was accidental at first… Matt Diamond (Coalmine Records, 86 Witness Executive Producer) and I started noticing the year popping up via references in P’s rhymes, and so we started to add our own 1986 ideas into the mix, including the title.
Sean’s widow Bernadette has been very hands-on in making sure her husband’s music is respected. Did 86 Witness get her blessing?
86 Witness was released as a partnership between Coalmine Records and Duck Down Music – the latter of which Bernadette has worked closely with since P’s passing, so her blessing was received.
Lastly, what are some of your favorite personal memories of working with P?
My favorite memories of working with P were our few phone calls, where we pretty much just talked about rap and our kids. Our relationship was mainly a musical one, so the most thrilling thing was getting new P verses in my email that only two other people in the world had heard to date. He also almost snapped at me once because I switched his verses around without his permission, but he liked the end result so much it didn’t matter [laughs].
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86 Witness is out now. Purchase here. Follow Small Pro on Twitter. Interview by Grown Up Rap Editor Ben Pedroche.
Czarface, aka Inspectah Deck and 7L & Esoteric, continue their run of impeccable hip-hop albums with the release of Czarface Meets Ghostface, a collaboration with Ghostface Killah. We caught up with DJ 7L to talk about his production duo The Czar-Keys, the Czar universe and more. Interview by Matt Horowitz.
How exactly did The Czar-Keys, with Jeremy Page, first come to fruition?
I met Jeremy years back – he is part of/and produces my man That Handsome Devils band/music, plus Kendra Morris among others. So I def knew him going back 10 years if not longer actually.
Some time in 2016 our mutual friend Matt suggested we get up and work. I was mentioning that I wanted to get a sample reworked and he said Jeremy was the guy, and from there we been working ever since! Prior to that I was working with Todd Spadafore, another amazing musician who is out in LA now writing and producing. Me and Todd worked on 7LES stuff back in the day. To me samples mixed with live music is really the best possible way to make music. What Just Blaze was doing during those early 2000 Roc-A-Fella years was what I wanted for a sound.
As far as the name, around the First Weapon Drawn record I came up with the name The Czar-Keys (off the Mar-Keys album I had in the studio at the time) as a half joke, a fake band. So since First Weapon Drawn was treated as a soundtrack-based album it just worked. I was always a huge fan of production teams i.e; The Beatnuts, Bomb Squad, Boogie Men, Beatminerz, Hitmen…Ghetto Pros etc., so the name The Czar-Keys just kind of just worked.
For the Czarface Meets Ghostface I don’t think we changed anything as far as our recording process. I remember Deck saying early on around that no matter who we are working with “they are in our dojo” so to speak. We just keep things as loose as we can and just record records and see how they happen organically. For the I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings album, Misterman Cheers (formerly Rast) def wanted a particular sound. I think I dubbed it a “surf” sound half way through. I was chopping various Hawaiian/Exotica Records and Jeremy was killing it with the Hammond/Organ.
A lot of people may not realize this but Czarface actually dates back as far as “Speaking Real Words” from 2006’s The Soul Purpose and “12th Chamber” (credited to Czarface) from 2010’s 1212. What prompted you fellas to, ultimately, turn Czarface into a full-fledged super-group/villain?
While mixing the “12th Chamber” record (a song with Eso & Deck from 2010) I remember texting Eso (pretty casually in hindsight) “you and Deck should do a whole record together”. My suggestion was no digital, no CD, no cover, just do a white label EP, six songs. Something for just hardcore fans to find and treasure as this hidden record. Eso was like “I mean, I’ll talk to Deck but we def gotta do something more than a white label record lol”. We didn’t have the whole Czarface character even in motion at this point. We were just recording songs and having fun. Then a little over half way through we started throwing around names and landed on Czarface. I think we might have had a demo of a song named “Incarcerated Czarfaces” as a half joke, but we liked Czarface.
How exactly does Czarface cumulatively represent yourself, Inspectah Deck and Esoteric? At what point in the recording process did L’Amore Supreme come up with the now-infamous character design?
Once we got the name I think we talked about having a character as the group figure head. That was one thing we all decided on from jump, was really having the project be different from each of our other records (Deck or Eso’s solo records).
I am the furthest thing from a metal person but I do remember as a kid starring at the Iron Maiden album covers and thought the Eddie character was so cool. I liked the idea of doing something similar and building off this character.
Eso saw L’Amore’s art and felt he would be the person to bring the Czar character to life. Eso came up with the character, the ideas and the direction and then he and L’Amore worked together on what Czar is today. Eso works hard on all the comic related aspects which I think moving forward is a big piece to the Czar universe. Same way I’ll obsess over a sample and staying to the fundamentals of why I got into making music I think he holds the same for comics.
How would you personally say First Weapon Drawn’s read-along comic book/album and Record Store Day Black Friday 2018’s Dog Days of Tomorrow relate to Czarface’s ever-evolving collection of music?
Well I think this was something we wanted to do once the Czarface character was developed. We liked that we could do comics or action figures and just other things based off Czarface that wasn’t specific to just making albums. When we did Every Hero Needs a Villain we touched on Czar as a character not related to the music per se. I think in the last few years that we been able to really make progress on both Czarface music and Czarface as a character.
Would you mind briefly explaining the various Get On Down packages and various merchandise to be associated with Czarface Meets Ghostface’s release? Are there any current plans to tour behind the album, as well?
Get on Down has always been ahead of the curve on the special packaging with hip-hop releases. Since the first album with the pop up CD they have always been a great partner to get our projects done in an interesting way.
I think with First Weapon Drawn we were able to split things up a bit, meaning more focus on making great albums while saving the extra packaging side for the comic/instrumental albums.
Matt Horowitz has been a hip-hop fan ever since he first heard Wu-Tang Clan’s Enter The Wu-Tang (36 Chambers) back in the mid-90’s, which positively or negatively changed his life ever since, depending on who you ask. He single-handedly runs online music publication The Witzard, and has been fortunate enough to interview Eothen ‘Egon’ Alapatt, Guilty Simpson, Ice-T and Mr. X, Dan Ubick, Career Crooks’ Zilla Rocca & Small Professor, Cut Chemist, and J-Zone, amongst countless others. He enjoys writing about and listening to hip-hop, Punk/Hardcore, and Indie Rock on vinyl with his lovely wife, while drinking craft beer, red wine, or iced coffee. To paraphrase both Darko The Super and the Beastie Boys: “Already Dead fans, they want more of this… I’m a Witzard like my man Matt Horowitz!”. Follow Matt here.
