Category: Ghostface Killah

Author Will Ashon recently published the excellent Chamber Music: Wu-Tang and America [In 36 Pieces]. We spoke to him about the journey of writing a work as masterful as this, his time as head of the iconic Big Dada Recordings, and of course, the Wu.

What’s fascinating is that the book is about the Wu-Tang Clan, but also isn’t. It uses Enter the Wu-Tang (36 Chambers) as a framework for what is essentially the history of black America. Did you always intend for the book to be so broad, or did it start out as more of a simple celebration of a classic album?

It was never going to be a simple celebration of a classic album because my brain doesn’t work that way. On the other hand, I’m not sure I intended for it to be as broad as it worked out! I think that hip hop is a connective music – it works by collaging together and, in the process, commenting on, other musics, ideas and stories, so any book on hip hop kind of has to do the same thing, too. I wanted it to be as wild and outward looking and baffling (and hopefully as exhilarating) as the album it was about.

Art can be interpreted in many ways, meaning different things to different people. Did you ever fear though that interpreting and attaching meaning to specific lyrics might sometimes come across as tenuous, trying to find something that isn’t there? You allude to this a few times in the book in the latter chapters, especially with Ghostface lyrics.

Haha! Nah, I didn’t worry about tenuousness. Ghostface’s lyrics, in particular, are so weird and impenetrable that they demand interpretation. And isn’t that what fans do? Try to figure out what their favourite rapper is saying and what it means? Overall, my philosophy when writing a book is that I’d rather be interesting than right, by which I mean I’d rather make readers think than just tell them stuff they already know and reinforce their already-held views. Lyric interpretation is part of this – if you think I’m wrong, that’s great. At least it means you’re engaging with those lyrics. And reading a book should be all about engagement, not being spoon-fed “FACTS.”

I also notice how you, wisely, avoid looking too deep into some of RZA’s philosophies and ideas from The Tao of Wu. Was it hard to avoid certain rabbit holes?

I love a good rabbit hole. Rather than avoid them, I prefer to jump in and dive so fast I blast right out the other side. As far as I can see, the whole book is in part an interpretation of RZA’s philosophies. But I don’t bother setting them all out exactly as they’re set out in The Tao of Wu because The Tao of Wu already exists for that. (Plus, I’m writing about a record released 20 years before The Tao of Wu).

Being a writer myself I know just how much research a work like this requires. How long did it take to write, and where did your research take you?

The book took me a year to research and write, flat out (plus my thirty years of listening to and thinking about hip hop more generally). That was much quicker than I would’ve liked, but I had an artificial deadline set by the upcoming 25th anniversary of the album’s release. As a result, I really went at it hard – forty hour weeks in the British Library, trying to get through and assimilate all the information I needed (and some that I didn’t). It’s the most intense period of work I’ve ever done on a book and it was pretty exhausting.

In terms of being taken somewhere, I also went and spent time trudging round Staten Island, getting a feel for the place – its atmosphere and geography. That was essential in all kinds of ways – I didn’t realise, for instance, that the spot where Eric Garner was killed by the police was so close to where the first Wu Wear store was located. These kind of connections are what animate the finished book.

Being white, and from the UK, I sometimes struggle to write about the history of black American music and culture, for fear of coming across as a phoney. I noticed that you seem conscious of this in the book too. Is it hard to write authentically about things you never actually experienced first hand?

I’m not too worried about authenticity – which, as I explore in the book, is a pretty loaded concept anyway. I think it’s more important to worry about being responsible in what I do. That means being clear and open about the perspective that I’m coming from and it means interrogating my own assumptions. It means, in effect, abandoning “objectivity” and instead focussing on love.

Having said that, I suppose being an outsider also allows you to provide a different perspective?

Yeah maybe – although it’s arguable that being an outsider to an outsider culture makes you a cultural insider at a broader level. To put it another way, you can’t use that as an excuse and you certainly can’t privilege your perspective over another. I think, once again, it’s best just to be honest about where you’re coming from and then it’s up to the reader to decide what they make of that. Nobody has to buy the book!

The response to the book had been very positive. But I’m curious to know if you’ve had any feedback from the Wu or those in their circle. Do you know if any of them are aware of the book?

No feedback, no. The publisher sent it to the management of a couple of the members but beyond that I have no idea.

I’d like to talk about Big Dada. You founded the label and ran it for several years. Tell me about that experience. 

That’s a big question! It was fifteen years of my life (a little more, in fact), so it’s hard to sum that up in a few sentences. We tried to change the landscape for Black music in the UK and to some extent we achieved that and to some extent we failed. I’m really proud to have worked with all the artists I worked with, even when they hated me or my ideas (which they sometimes did). But running a record label is hard, unrelenting work, most of the time you don’t achieve what you hoped for, and eventually I was ground down by it. I wish I’d managed to make it more sustainable without me but I don’t regret stepping away.

What are some of the releases from your time there you are most proud of? 

There are so, so many. Not sure it would be fair to the others to pick out a couple. Suffice to say, I’m really proud to have released albums by Roots Manuva, New Flesh, Gamma, Infesticons, TTC, Ty, MF Doom (King Geedorah), cLOUDDEAD, Wiley, Spank Rock, Infinite Livez, Lotek Hifi, Busdriver, Anti-Pop Consortium, Diplo, Speech Debelle, Offshore, Congo Natty etc etc, right up to the last two signings of ‘my’ era, Young Fathers and Kate Tempest.

Lastly, considering how their last few albums have been mediocre at best, what would the perfect Wu-Tang Clan comeback album look like in your eyes?

Ouch, that seems a bit harsh. In all honesty, I’d rather hear a debut album by a group I’d never come across before which had the same levels of energy, inventiveness, aggression, humour, originality, street smarts and vision as “36 Chambers.” THAT would be worth seeking out!

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Chamber Music: Wu-Tang and America [In 36 Pieces] is out now, published by Faber & Faber. Get it here. Those in the UK can purchase here, published by Granta under the slightly different title, Chamber Music: About the Wu-Tang [In 36 Pieces]. Follow Will Ashon on Twitter. Interview by Ben Pedroche.