Steel Tipped Dove is undoubtedly one of the most prolific producers of the moment, with a substantial list of releases under his belt over the last two years alone. GingerSlim recently caught up with him to discuss his run of collaborations, as well his shift into the foreground of the scene, the unsung success of studio engineering and his plans for his fledgling label, Fused Arrow Records.
You’ve been on a quite a momentous run the last couple of years. I know you’ve always been prolific but this feels like you’ve taken it up a notch. Was there anything in particular that prompted that burst of creativity?
I feel like I would have made the projects regardless, because like you said I’ve always made tons and tons of shit. Making the push to release several things in quite a short space of time, was driven by starting the label and also by getting a day-job to afford to start the label [laughs]. I had a little disposable income, so I thought I should start pressing some vinyl; why not press all these ridiculous projects that I’m working on? I finished them all last year and that’s why they all came out at the top of this year. So it was driven by starting the label for sure.
Right, and so what’s your vision for the label?
My vision is to get to maybe 300 pieces of vinyl. I’d like to get there and anything above that would be kinda hard to do as one single person cos right now I’m just running it by myself. I did 100 pieces for the first couple of records and let’s say I sell all 100. I can handle packaging and shipping all those myself over the course of about a weekend. So with 300 pieces that could take a couple of weekends or a full week at most. Above 300, I’d probably have to get some help, so the goal right now is to release some projects that have the demand for about 300 pieces. And then the music beyond that after the vinyl has gone, it’s more up to the individual artists. Even though I’m an artist on the records as well [laughs] I want to take their lead with whatever they want to do. Basically, I don’t want to be involved in ownership of music, I want to do small runs of vinyl for music that I love. So like a boutique label to press up these pieces and then outside of that, the music can exist and have a life of its own.
Yeah that’s a nice ethos, I think. So far they’ve all been projects you’ve been involved with… is that right?
Yeah, I produced everything. I’m yet to release any music that I didn’t produce myself.
But is that on the horizon, do you think?
I don’t know, I go back and forth. I was out to lunch with billy woods a couple of weeks ago and I told him that next year I might start pressing up other people’s music, and he was like, “Don’t” [laughs]. You know, like just joking but a good joke with some truth in it. Yeah, so I go back and forth. I kinda feel differently about it week to week. I would love to because I know so many cool artists and people have already spoken to me about potentially pressing up their music and distributing it. But I’m torn, I’m on the fence about it right now. What do you think?
I mean from outsider’s point of view, if you’ve got a nice little boutique setup like that, then it might be cool to support your friends’ releases. It seems like a plausible thing to be able to do.
Definitely plausible. But the other thing is I’ve got other projects of my own ready to go. So if someone approaches me with the idea of releasing their stuff and I think oh that’s great, but meanwhile I’m sitting on my own thing. So then it’s like, “get in line” [laughs]. But we’ll see.
Are you always that far ahead of yourself in terms of your music?
No this is sort of new to me, to be this far ahead, but that’s kinda born out of working with more popular artists, or the artists that I’m working with gaining more popularity as time goes on. So in the past I would work on something and release it when it was done. I wanted people to hear it as soon as possible and hope that they listen. And now, it’s sort of switched to us putting it out and we know people are going to listen, because we know we have listeners. So me sort of learning to sit on projects was born out of the fact that if we sit on this and plan it right, since we know we have this many listeners, we can probably get even more by doing a rollout, events, stuff like that. So being this far ahead is kinda new to me, but I’m enjoying it.
Yeah, so knowing you’ve got that listenership there already, I suppose that takes away some of the stress of releasing a project? Was that even ever something you worried about in the past?
I’ll be real with you, man, not really. The answer is yes of course, but also not really. I do weird music. I make very experimental, strange hip hop beats and I’m not working with artists who are commercially successful to the point where they’ve got thousands and thousands of people listening, so I don’t know if I was ever affected by it that much.
Talking about those artists that you work with, because it’s been a richly varied list so far, how do you go about setting collaborations up? Are they all artists who come into your orbit naturally?
Yeah, it’s all very natural. With the Nosaj record, he came into my orbit through Armand Hammer because he was on Shrines and ELUCID sent him to my studio to record his feature. I met him and was like, whoa this dude is fucking awesome, so we started working on music together. With the Alaska project, he was legend to me. I was maybe just out of high school listening to Hangar 18, that’s a legendary rapper to me, so eventually he came into my orbit through the Wrecking Crew family and that was a no-brainer as well. Same thing with andrew, he came through naturally and I was like, do you want beats? If the answer is yes then I’ll ask if we’re going to do a full project, are we going to do an EP? So yeah, all very natural.
And do you prefer it that way, rather than having to go to look for these collaborations and make them happen?
You know I’m struggling with that, because I’m working with some of the best artists who are rapping right now. Like I’m working on this new project with a woman called Adibop and it’s a compilation, so we’re going to put a bunch of artists on a bunch of beats. And in my mind, I’m thinking right I can get these 10 artists, but I’m always working with these 10 artists so maybe I should look for new people… but these are the 10 best artists and these are the artists that people want to hear! So it’s that sort of thing where I’m like, do I work with the same old people – the same old people being the best people – or do I try as hard as I can to find new people? It’s a good struggle to have, but it is something I’m struggling with right now.
Are there any dream collaborations you would like to make happen?
Dream collaborations? Like with anybody? Yeah of course. My number one – and I feel like I’ve said this in a few interviews and I’m sticking with it until he hears it – is Vince Staples, one of my favourite rappers. I really like what he does, every element of it, so that would be a dream collab. I would love to collaborate with the obvious ones, like Earl Sweatshirt and Danny Brown, I think they do really great stuff. I feel like my answers are pretty obvious…
Yeah, that’s cool. I mean, the degrees of separation, at least with Danny and Earl, are getting smaller these days.
[laughs] Yeah, I’m working on it.
One of my favourites of yours was Call Me When You’re Outside and I know you’ve done multi-feature projects in the past. How is it orchestrating an album with that many guest involved?
Pretty simple when you have woods as the executive producer [laughs]. An email coming from that guy, I would say, carries quite a lot of weight. He has proven over and over again that he is only involved with incredible art. I already had relationships with a few of them, but when he asked if he could executive produce and sort of takeover finishing off the rest of the tracks, what am I going to say? So I feel like him being able to reach out to the artists was an extreme strength for sure.
Is it trickier to maintain a cohesive sound when you’re working on something like that, than when you’re working with a single artist?
Maybe for some, but for me not at all – I know that sounds real pretentious.
No, I admire the honesty.
I make enough music, instrumental tracks and beats, in enough different styles, that it becomes fairly easy to zone in on the sound we need when we need it. When the project starts coming together, if the list of beats is 10, then it’s fairly easy to get it down to the final three because the project is already developing a sound of its own. And then with the single artist stuff, that just naturally works itself out. The first pack that I send is not going to have any preconceived notion, I’m just going to send random beats. I’m not even going to attempt to think about which artist will like which beat. I’m going to pull up my folder, pick out whatever I think sounds good that day and send it over. What will drive the project, will be what the artist chooses from that original pack and then we’ll kinda work towards that aesthetic
That sounds like the best way to do it. I’ve spoken to a couple of producers who have said that the beats that an artist chose were not the ones they thought they would go for.
Yeah, I’ve had too many experiences of a rapper being in my studio, hearing a beat I’ve made and asking why I didn’t send it to them, because it’s their favourite beat I’ve ever made. And it’s something I would’ve never thought to send them because I didn’t think they would like it. That’s happened too many times for me to know that I just have to randomise what I send.
I remember reading in the release notes for Call Me When You’re Outside that you had always been comfortable as like a background player, but there feels as though as there has been a shift in that since then. Is that fair to say?
Yeah, becoming more of a primary artist on the records, is that what you’re talking about?
Yeah, exactly.
I’m excited about it, I think it’s fun. It’s not been that important to me, being the primary artist. I enjoy it, but sometimes I struggle with it though. Because just my name, bro, just aesthetically from an art standpoint, or a text standpoint, I kinda just want to take my name off that shit. I’ll be the producer, I’ll be the primary artist, but I don’t know if I need to be visually represented, you know what I’m saying? I almost wish that with some of these projects, it was just like ‘Alaska – Structural Dynamics of Flow’. I love that I’m a primary artist but I’m still figuring that out. I appreciate that question, because I understand it and I understand why you asked me. I’m debating it and wondering what I might do with that.
Well you can come back and give me the answer another time, man.
When you see the next album come out and I don’t have my name as the primary artist, you’ll know why!
I’ll feel partly responsible.
[laughs]
I think I was aware of your mixing and mastering talents, before your beat-making and production. How did you first get involved with sound engineering?
My friends a long time ago, like 16, 17 years ago, they wanted to rap because they were inspired by all the underground stuff we were listening to at that point. So I had a few friends who wanted to write and record, and we had just entered that time when people could record at home, so when they said that, I said they were going to need somebody to go grab a laptop and learn to use GarageBand. I already loved computers, so I did that and just sort of taught myself everything.
Okay, so the production and the engineering side came at the same time?
Same time, man. They were like, “How do we record over these Kanye beats?”, so I just grabbed a MacBook, opened up GarageBand and figured out how to use it. Then continued teaching myself to make beats and then eventually switched over to Pro Tools. I’d try out all the different applications, then come back to Logic and Reason, just learning all this stuff on my own.
I kinda feel like the engineering side is an undervalued area of the process, because it’s something that a lot of people won’t appreciate until they hear an album that’s badly mixed. Does that make sense?
Yeah, you kinda nailed it when you said they would only notice when it’s bad cos if you’re the mixing engineer on a pop record that hundreds of millions of plays, you’re doing the best job to not be noticed. It’s perfect, so no one even thinks of you, right? Whereas if you listen to a song where you can’t hear the vocals, you know that this guy fucked it up. So if you do your job perfectly, no one notices.
But then within that industry, the people who create music, they are able to hear differences. So with two perfectly mixed versions of a song, they will be able to point out what it is they’re looking for from each. They have aesthetic styles that you can really try to work with and get your name recognised in that regard.
Yeah, of course. And what about music in general? I think I read in an interview that you’re a self-confessed music obsessive. Did that stem from childhood? Has it always been the case?
Yeah, for sure. Even back then I was still buying more CDs than my friends and just listening constantly. What really changed it was Limewire, Napster and shit like that. Because if I’m a music obsessive I’m still limited by the fact that I have to go to a place, buy a thing, come back home and listen to it, you know what I mean? Then the downloads come and I’m like, oh I’ll just listen to all music at all times, as fast as I can with no abandon. The you become your own little archivist and obsessive, which is what happened to me [laughs].
I think I also read that you describe yourself as someone who isn’t very sociable, but you have a lot of artists passing through your studio, so do you find it easier to be in the company of others when there is creativity involved?
Yeah, for sure. If I’m at a function and the only person who’s involved with the arts, I think I’ll struggle a bit to hold conversations. I’ll make do – I’m really great at exercising my imposter syndrome in a good way. And I’ve had corporate jobs in the past – I have one right now – so I can step into those worlds and do fine. But I feel pretty introverted in those worlds, because what are we talking about? I don’t do sports, I don’t do most of the stuff that non-artist people do. So then I’ll try to steer the conversation, like, “So who are you listening to at the moment?”, even if it’s just the most popular music, because I listen to the most popular music too. But yeah, I’m an introvert for the most part.
From what I understand, your studio is in Brooklyn and it’s survived a lot of the surrounding gentrification. Has that been much of a struggle?
Not for me, I’m a gentrifier technically [laughs]. I mean I moved here a long time ago, but still I’m a fourth or fifth wave gentrifier. I’m not from here and I moved here for the music scene. I began working on music and once you start reading credits and reading about bands, you’re like, “Oh everyone I’m looking at is from Brooklyn. Well, that’s close so I’ll just go down there” [laughs]. But I’ve certainly watched it get even crazier. They’re building a huge condo right across the street from my studio/apartment and it’s going to take away my view, so it’s fascinating to see but I am objectively part of the problem in a sense.
But you’ve been there a while now…
Close to 18 years.
Right and so I’m interested in this idea of people surviving gentrification, because essentially the place they loved and were clinging on to doesn’t exist anymore. So what are they staying for, if that makes sense?
Yeah it does and I’m staying because I got really lucky with the size of my apartment vs. how much it costs. I have an entire room in my apartment that I can solely dedicate to recording, which is very rare to be able to have a place of that size in your price range. I can’t wait to move, just because I’ve been in the same place for so long. The apartment’s great, the neighbourhood’s great, but I just want something new. But I will not be moving until I absolutely have to, because I have such a good deal and such a good music space.
That’s almost it from me, man, but before we say our goodbyes, I wanted to know what you’ve got lined up for the future? You’ve got the album with Fatboi Sharif coming.
Yeah, man, and we can talk about the fact that you shot the cover for it!
[laughs] We can talk about that.
I’m stoked! It looks fucking great. I remember seeing that photo and bookmarking it, but not mentioning it to you because Sharif had chosen a bunch of stuff from Getty Images, which I liked and thought was cool. But then I saw your photo and was like, “This looks like that!”. So instead of using Getty, let’s hit up a guy who everyone likes. He likes our stuff, we like his stuff. So eventually I showed it to Sharif and he was liked it, so I’m really glad it worked out. That shit is crazy.
Oh man, well it was a big boost for me. I think maybe a month before you messaged me I was on Twitter talking about how I’m working my way towards getting a comission for Backwoodz.
Oh really?
Yeah, and it’s funny because what we were saying about rappers not necessarily choosing the beats you thought they would go for, well that photo was one I hadn’t really thought about since I took it. So the fact that you found it, liked it and now it’s becoming this cover, that’s brilliant.
Yeah man, you just never know. I’ll play a beat for somebody, they’ll say it’s the hardest shit I’ve ever made and I’m thinking I haven’t even finished it yet [laughs]. That’s just how it goes. But yeah, I’m really excited for it. We’re doing vinyl, digital, videos, there’s a whole bunch of stuff. We’ll send you a few copies.
I would love that, thank you. And other than that, what else is on the horizon for you?
I’ve finished an album with AJ Suede, so I’m going to release that on my label towards the end of the year. That’s going to be really cool. And then I’ve finished another album with AJ Sude and R.A.P. Ferreira, but the release for that is out of my hands. They’re going to release that and I’m just really excited about it. I’m working on the project with Adibop; she’s a bass player, so we’re co-producing instrumental tracks together that we’re going to put rappers on. I’m working on an album with Duncecap, I’m working on music with Lungs and phiik… I feel like I’m missing people out, but I’m working on a lot of music [laughs].
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Decay from Fatboi Sharif and Steel Tipped Dove is out this Friday, July 21. Buy in from here, and see here to listen to more of Steel Tipped Dove’s music. Follow him on Twitter and Instagram.
Gingerslim has been a hip-hop fan since 1994 and has written for various blogs and websites since around 2006. During that time he has contributed to The Wire, style43, Think Zebra, Headsknow, Front Magazine and more. His main interests in rap are UK hip-hop and the underground movement in America, with a focus on Rhymesayers Entertainment and the once mighty Def Jux label. He lives in Bristol and has a beard. All other details are sketchy at best. Read his own hip-hop blog and follow him here.