[The following interview has been slightly edited for clarity]
So how have you been keeping?
Yeah, I’ve been okay. I’ve had a crazy year but things have been really good recently. Just being able to play some shows again… I’ve got a lot of work right now and stuff. I went through a divorce this year and a bunch of other intense stuff, so life was really intense for a while, but I’ve been feeling good recently.
Well, that’s good to hear. I know you were involved with the recent Armand Hammer tour?
Yeah, I did the last two nights, I played with them in L.A.
And how was that?
It was amazing. It just felt so good to play Small Bills music live. That music’s been around a long time, but then it was the pandemic so we never toured or anything, so it felt good to play that. And it was just life affirming to be on a stage with Elucid, woods and Alchemist, in front of a big crowd. You work for these things for a long time, so it’s cool to land there.
Yeah, I can imagine. Now it’s good to start at the beginning and I know that making music has been something of an obsession of yours since you were quite young, so I was wondering how that first sort of came about? Was there much musical influence in your family?
My parents were pretty much classic music fans who came of age in the 60’s and 70’s, so they had a lot of records and music had been a big part of their lives. No one was a musician in my family but it was like constant listening and my parents were the ones who always drove people to concerts, so I had that love and appreciation of music. My mom’s an artist and my dad’s a writer, so there was a lot of info to gain about creative life etc. But music for me really became an obsession, first as a listener, then in fifth-grade I started playing clarinet and it was just an instant obsession. Then clarinet turned into piano, then guitar, other horns and eventually recording. So, I had the listening obsession that pushed me into the creative part of it.
I actually played the clarinet myself when I was younger but it was more because I had to settle for the clarinet as I couldn’t afford a saxophone, and it was supposed to be an easy transition between the two. But my teacher was a very militant old woman and we didn’t get on at all, so I gave it up fairly quickly which is a regret of mine.
Yeah, I believe a lot of people don’t make it through the clarinet [laughs]. It’s sort of the beginning and the end for a lot of music careers [laughs]. Yeah, I don’t know, it just appealed to me, I think. I still play clarinet and I still really love that instrument but it’s funny to think back to that because I definitely didn’t want to play it either. I think I had my eye on the saxophone or something else, but it was just the more affordable entry point. That’s why you’ve got 40 clarinet players in the sixth-grade band [laughs].
Yeah, I was an 80’s kid so the saxophone was at its peak then. I think I saw Lost Boys and was like, hey I want to be that bare chested guy at the beach concert [laughs]. You’re based in the Detroit area, but is that where you grew up?
I grew up on the other side of Michigan, on the east side of the state, but my mom is from Detroit and in terms of music culture, it really begins and ends there. There are other towns that I love, like Kalamazoo, which was a big part of my music life. But in terms of gaining that musical influence, there weren’t really concerts in the 90’s if they weren’t in Detroit, that was the spot you went.
Obviously, Detroit’s rap heritage is exceptional, but did that have much of an impact on your entry into music?
Detroit is funny, because you can say that about rap, rock and techno music. And almost with funk music too. All the best Funkadelic records were made there and of course Motown. You definitely sensed the musical history and as you got older you began to understand it more; it’s really a town that invents sounds. So, I was definitely aware of all that… I mean the age when I was really starting to get into making beats and stuff, it was like the D12, Eminem height of insanity, so it was hard not to be inspired by your proximity to something that’s getting all this love from the whole world. But for me, I’ve always felt comfortable in hip hop but I’ve never pretended that it’s my home. I think that’s part of my strength, understanding how I fit into hip hop and rap. So in general, Detroit’s just a really hard sound. It’s a grimy place. Just the weather and the culture; what you go through if you’re a native Detroiter, that’s a really unique life to live. With the heaviness of that kinda rap, I’ve never really felt like there’s a place for me but I’m definitely inspired by it. I think these days, I love the techno part of Detroit too; just the whole thing. The whole fusion of sound is what inspires me personally, the fact that all these things co-exist there.
Yeah, that makes sense. Your 2121 album was the one that really shone a light on the levels of your musicianship for me. Extending way beyond being a producer, into more of a musical director role. Is that an evolution we’re going to see more of from you? Do you have an end goal as far as that’s concerned?
I mean I take it like a project at a time, but my roots are really more in that sort of area. What you hear on 2121, I think that was me kinda going back to some of my earlier knowledge and finally learning how to use it in the music I’m making now. So in terms of being a bandleader, being someone who plays a lot of instruments, someone who’s played in orchestras, punk bands, rap shit, jazz groups… I think my ultimate strength is being able to communicate with a lot of musicians. And also write and compose music that gives a lot of different kinds of people a place to shine. So the musical director, bandleader thing is a really natural role for me because my ego doesn’t need to be the centre of attention. But I do think I’ve spent the hours to get to this place where I can communicate with a lot of types of musicians, so yeah, I do think that’s where my craft is going in terms of these records I’m putting out.
I can still make rap beats and I still want to be able to push that part of my craft, but it’s all about finding your voice, what’s sincere and what you have to offer that’s unique. For me, it’s that fusion of the live musicianship but never losing the beat-maker aesthetic at the same time. Because despite me using all these instruments and musicians, the way I create is still closer to a beat-maker than a band. I like being able to fuse those things and I think the next records I have coming out all extend from that place. Whether it’s new Small Bills music, or new Lasso music, I’m just so interested by what happens when a bunch of people get together to make the final product. Even if I write the chords or get the drums going, the final product isn’t something that one person thought of. It’s something that required a lot of people’s voices and I think that’s when the most interesting stuff happens.
Yeah, definitely. Well I look forward to hearing what you’ve got in store. I found a similar energy on the Small Bills album, which for want of a better term, sounded quite experimental to me. It also felt quite organic and spontaneous, so was that how it happened as you were making it?
It was spontaneous in the sense that ELUCID has an openness to hearing a ton of all kinds of beats. So there was so much material we pulled from because it wasn’t like, let’s make it sound like this or that. There was a little bit of setting up boundaries, but there was so much space… like there’s not a lot of rules to that project. That’s why we’re so excited about it still and why we’re working on new music. I don’t think either me or Elucid thought of ‘the Small Bills sound’, it was just the culmination of being in the studio, trying stuff, bringing different people in and just being open to finding a voice that isn’t just… you know people love him as a rapper and I’ve got the producer thing, but we didn’t just fuse our sounds; we wanted to make something new.
Your latest album, with Jordan Hamilton and The Saxsquatch, is arguably the one most removed from hip hop, albeit still in the same vicinity. Is that something you would like to explore further?
Yeah definitely. Like 2121, Small Bills and Tri Magi kinda account for my three lanes. Like I wanna be able to make instrumental music that is rooted in beats but has elements of jazz, classical and other stuff. Then Small Bills can be avant garde, but it’s more based around a rap vocalist. Then with 2121 and working with A. Billi Free, it’s kinda like song-based music; there are hooks and there is probably more singing than there is rapping per se. So I look at my craft in those three realms – instrumental music, rap music and song-based music; all three of those things I have so many ideas for. And like all these albums I’m putting out, I’ve had the ideas since Mello signed me; I knew I was going to make an album with Jordan and Jarad. These are the goals you sort of dream of. Like I know my sound would work with this cellist and this sax player… then once you do it, it gives you so much power to do it again and do it better. So, once I’ve spent the time to learn how to create with a cellist and a sax player, I’m just going to keep doing it, because it’s not easy to find those sounds. And once you do get there, you want to bask in them. But I don’t think I’d ever make straight jazz, I always want my records to be at the intersections of a few different places. That’s always what’s interested me. Can I find new styles, even if they’re pastiches or reimaginings. I think that’s a big thing that motivates me – feeling like there’s a newness to the sound.
You guys had all worked together previously at various points, so how did you first meet?
I’d actually known Saxsquatch for more than a decade. We all hang around in Kalamazoo, which is a little town in Michigan that has this crazy music history. There are tons of studios, tons of musicians. That’s where Gibson guitars started… so it’s this small town with this overwhelming number of musicians and we all kinda came up there. Saxsquatch and I were from a generation earlier, then Jordan was maybe 5 or 7 years younger than me and he was just another person coming up in this Kalamazoo music world of really well-trained players. But at the same time, it’s this really small town and you’re not forced to try to be some sort of vanguard and shit, you can just play with your friends. Sometimes I think of my job like I’m a director, writing this music and then I’m trying to cast the right people in it. It just sounded really interesting to have an album focused on two instrumentalists, as opposed to just one; I liked that idea. Like looking at those old jazz records and you see all the names on the cover and stuff, I wanted to have that feeling but with a different genre.
Now I know we touched on some of the experiences you’ve had this year, which haven’t been great for you. I just wanted to know how that sort of things affects your creativity, do you find yourself knuckling down more to escape the gloom, or does it tend to bring you to a stop? I know it’s definitely the latter for me.
Yeah, that’s a really good question. It’s been a less creative era for me in some ways, but I never stop. It’s changed so much and they were such seismic changes… like I was a foster parent last year and what you go through with all that, like the world looks really different to me than it did a year ago. I’m not even talking about Covid, I just had so much stuff going on that my life is fundamentally different. So I never stopped making records throughout this last year, but my motivation in life changed. I’m playing some of the biggest shows of my life, I’m living my dream and I’m so grateful because I worked my ass off to get to this point, but it’s not the beginning and end of the world for me. I want to be happy, I want to enjoy life, I want to treat people well, but some of that stuff is hard to negotiate with a music career. You see heavy things, or you go through an experience and you’re so grateful for music. It is my life, my collaborators are keeping me alive and giving me so much love; that’s almost more important to me than just putting out records and playing shows. That stuff is wonderful but I guess I value happiness in a way I hadn’t in the past.
But yeah, it’s hard to be creative when you’re down. I did learn that. This year what I was inspired by was often love and happiness, not depression and anxiety. Like I can reflect on them. I’ve made some music that deals with what I’m going through, but that’s not my favourite way to live [laughs]. You know, just recycling through your negativity and trying to make something out of it. There’s a lot of great art that comes from that but I’ve never believed that myth… you know, I make depressing music when I’m happy sometimes, I don’t need to be depressed to be an artist. So it’s definitely been life altering and the main thing music related that I’ve gone through in my personal life is that I’m grateful to have had a passion in my life for so long. Something that holds me down in weird times and gives me direction. The language of music is really reflective. If you’re down and you find the right song, you might feel better a half hour later, and I love that.
And sticking with that same sort of theme, I know we spoke before in one of our message exchanges about how you find it hard to ‘stop the ideas coming’, I think was the phrase you used. So I was wondering if you have got any better at switching off and actually relaxing?
Dude, I appreciate you remembering that and asking me that. Yeah, I worked on it a lot. That was what I was talking about when I answered that last question – you get addicted to the creative process and it feels so good to create something from nothing. Then it becomes your career as well, and your income stream; also, a way that people see you in the world and you can kinda get this obsession with doing it. And also, that’s just how I like to live, I make stuff every day and I have for many years. I’m in a really creative long era of life and I don’t take that for granted, but you’ve got to balance that, right? So that’s what I’ve been working on and I’ve gotten way better. I take days off, I’m more willing to cancel stuff, and not just force myself to take opportunities when I’m not ready for them. But it’s funny you ask me that because my life has changed so much. I used to be married and have foster kids, but now my life is so different it’s easy for me to live in my creativity right now and maybe that’s where my life should be. I’m still figuring that out. But yeah, I really take days now where I won’t make any music. I try to do that one or two days a week, and it feels really good.
I’m glad you’ve managed to find that balance, man. Do you feel it’s had any impact on the times when you are trying to be creative?
Yeah, it has! ELUCID or anyone else I’m producing for now, it’s made it so that I’m building up this sort of inertia all the time, and then when I do sit down to make music… I’m really into making music in the presence of people now in a way. The past few years it was, oh I’m in my studio every day making tons of instrumentals and sending them out. Now that I take more breaks, build up this inertia and listen for a day or two before I create, and add in the presence of my collaborators, that’s my favourite thing now. Making beats in front of the people I’m producing for. It’s also a way that allows me to take more breaks, so I can say look instead of spending the day by yourself, why don’t you practice guitar for an hour, learn some chords and build up energy for the next time you’re in the studio? So, I have noticed a difference in that when I do sit down, it’s a little deeper in the well.
I was very pleased to see that you’re working on an album with Fielded, can you give me any hints as to what we can expect from that?
We’re figuring that out too. We’ve got some tracks done and we’re hard at work on it this fall… the other accomplished singer I’m working with right now is A. Billi Free, but she raps too, so I can give her a certain kind of music. Whereas working with Fielded, she writes really through long melodies and stuff first, so I’ve got to write more chords and giver her denser music on the front end, rather than just the groove and a bassline. So its cool… I’m trying to think what it compares to… a lot of Kate Bush, a lot of new wave, a lot of early 80’s New York funk / punk intersection… yeah it’s a great project. But she can just *sing*, and it’s amazing to be in the studio with someone who can just sing with so much volume and presence.
We did a week of sessions to get to know how far we can take it and then we’re just letting it unfold for a while… But I’m really excited to be working with her. I’m not big with genre words but it’s got a sound. It has a universe; I just don’t have the words to describe it yet. I’m just really glad that ELUCID and woods connected us. I find that regionally, artists are so different. Like if I work with an artist from New York, as opposed to an artist from the South West, they’re just fundamentally different cultures and peoples, so I might still be making hip hop with two artists who fit within that same genre, but they sound totally different. Their lives are different. The energy of New York is so specific, that’s just gonna be a part of mine and Fielded’s music, if we’re recording together.
She’s also done other things as well though right? I’m sure I saw her say something about being part of noise scene she was involved with, in another city in the US..
Yeah and currently, still! She performs with an artist whose name I can’t think of right now… some sort of avant garde performance artist… Fielded is a great beat-maker, she makes stuff that sounds like Joni Mitchell with synths all over, then you hear her on Armand Hammer records and it’s like a scary, gothic vocal cloud [laughs]. So she’s got such a range that we’re a great pairing, in the sense that we’re not trying to sit down and make a particular thing. Just blend our voices and let it go from there.
She was actually over here in the UK recently and invited me to a gallery opening in London where she performed.
Yeah she was touring out there. They play like crazy music and stuff, it’s more performance art. It’s really cool, so that must have been awesome. I’d love to see that show, she’s shown me a little bit from it.
So did your collaboration come about from her association with ELUCID and woods?
I was working on the Small Bills record…
Oh of course, she was on there.
Yeah and she’s got a little studio in her apartment, so ELUCID and I would record there. Then I did a remix on that project that Backwoodz put out and through working on that together, it was like oh shit we’ve got to make a record.
Well I’m glad it’s happening. That’s about it from me and I was going to ask what else you’ve got in store, but it sounds like a lot…
Yeah, I had so many solo releases these last few years and I definitely could keep the pace going… I’ve got a record coming out early next year, but I don’t want to say too much because it’s more fun when they just get announced. I don’t know… I just work with the people I like working with. I mean I’m certainly getting exciting opportunities but I don’t really worry about where it’s going. I know today I’ve got to mix all day [laughs] and I’m in Atlanta soon. I’m trying to book more time in really awesome studios this year, that’s one of my main things. So I guess to answer the what’s next – I have a lot of records done, or I have a lot that are in the early stages like the Fielded one, but my craft has been so solitary for years so now I feel like I’m stepping out a little bit more. I’m booking more time at studios and just making sure to push myself. I practice piano and guitar as much as I make beats right now. And I’m saving up money to make some really unique high-fidelity records. So that’s kinda where my heads at, just getting better. I don’t worry about who raps on it, I know if you focus on the interesting part of the craft then everything else unfolds from there. So I’m just staying obsessed with writing music.
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Listen and purchase The Lasso’s music via Mello Music Group, and follow him on Twitter and Instagram.
GingerSlim is a music journalist from Bristol, UK. His self-titled blog has been covering the UK and US indie rap scenes for over a decade, and he’s also a regular contributor to The Wire Magazine, Off Licence Magazine and The Find Mag. When he’s not writing about rap, you will usually find him with his face buried in a book, or talking to the birds. Follow him on Twitter and Instagram.