This week sees the release of the latest album from Evidence, Unlearning Vol. 1, which begins a new chapter in his career, following on from the acclaimed series of Weatherman releases. In our latest interview with the Rhymesayers Entertainment artist, Evidence and Gingerslim discuss the album, the lessons learned since their last conversation and break the news of a new musical venture he has planned for the near future.
How are you doing?
I’m good. How are you?
Yeah good, man, thank you. We actually spoke about three years ago, for the same people that I’m doing this for now.
Yeah, I remember.
I had a big beard and you made some hilarious comments about it…
Action Bronson?
[laughs] Yeah, something like that. I think the first thing you said to me was, “Holy shit your beard’s fucking crazy!”, then the line went dead and for a second I thought that might be all we ever said to each other.
[laughs]
So yeah, it’s good to talk to you again.
How’s the beard?
It’s gone now. I’m back to being clean shaven. So that era is done.
Not even like a little goatee?
I’ve got a bit of a moustache going on, but that’s it. I had the beard for something like 10 years so it got a bid ridiculous in terms of maintenance and I needed a change, so yeah all gone.
People look at you different, right?
Oh man, I looked at myself different after it went. I couldn’t believe what shape my chin was! I hadn’t seen it for so long, I was like what the hell’s this?
Like, “what the fuck is this thing?”
[laughs] Exactly. So, the new album is out this Friday. Are you all set for the release?
Yeah, I mean as much as I can be with Covid and everything.
How are things where you are?
Pretty open. People are still wearing masks inside and shit, but yeah it’s pretty open.
What about shows and stuff?
Yeah, they’re starting to get booked right now, for September or October time.
And are you looking forward to getting back to that? Have you enjoyed the break?
Well, it taught me a lot. It taught me how much shows are a part of me. And it definitely taught me how much they’re a part of my financial shit too [laughs]. Took a hit, like everybody else did, but I had a decent couple of years before that, so I was lucky enough to be able to push through it. I’m looking forward to getting back to it, but it’s going to be different. The world’s different to me a little bit. So yeah, we’ll see as it goes. If the genuine interest is really there, then I’m doing it, but if it’s me fighting for this shit, you know what I mean? Like I can see I’m pushing it more than it’s gravitating towards me, then we’ll see. But all indicators look good right now, so apparently I still got a job.
Well, that’s good to hear, man. Now the last time we spoke, you said you’d be starting a new chapter with this album but you weren’t sure where it would lead. How did you eventually find the direction that you’re taking with it?
Well, it’s no secret I’ve been looking for something, so I just made the record that was true to me right now. There’s a lot of growth and there’s a lot of that in the nuances. It’s not like I’m switching genres or trying to do that modern shit, not like that, it’s more in the choices I make. Keeping it raw, kinda stripping it down. I think a lot of people, as we get older and keep wanting to make shit, we keep wanting to throw the kitchen sink at it. Like we need more of this and more of that, I’m gonna need a string section [laughs], making it more grand as you’re trying to push yourself, but there’s also a tremendous amount of that same push if you strip shit back. So I was like, okay I’ma go that route, I’ma do that. So, I called it Unlearning so I could throw a lot of my rules out the window and essentially make my first demo again [laughs] if that makes any sense?
Yeah, I get you.
It’s like a reintroduction to my whole career. So it’s like going the other way and that’s scary as shit too. I find that minimalism isn’t always thought of as risk taking, but it really is scary as shit, because when you’re stripping shit back, there is less to hide behind and so it becomes a different kind of thing. And you know, I had talked to you, I had talked to a lot of other people and I’d produced Brother Ali’s album, and I preached that shit to him there, so I felt it so much and could see that shit so clearly for others, that I couldn’t back out. With that said, I don’t think it’s like a huge curve ball, but I definitely think if you’re into me and you know what I do, you can say oh okay something is happening here. And lastly, it’s not a Weatherman project, which was my moniker for the four albums, so this is not that; this is something different. And that in itself is scary because if you’re writing a book that’s successful, you keep writing more based on that topic and you’ll probably do well, but if you step out of that shit, it’s another question. So, it’s come to a point creatively where I’m just looking for new shit and feeling really inspired by a whole wave of people who have come into my life, so yeah, that’s where I’m at.
That’s really good to hear, man. With the title, is that something that’s limited to the music, or does it extend to life in general?
Everything, right now. I mean I made the song “Unlearning,” which was the result of a challenge from Alchemist. He was like I dare you to make a song, then mix it the next day, then call the video guy the next day, shoot the video and then put it out the next day [laughs] so I was like, fuck no one has challenged me to do shit for a long time. So I accepted. Graymatter, my friend, was in town so we cooked that up, made a song, put it out, BOOM. And it seemed to touch people in a weird way, like I hadn’t got that reaction in a minute from stuff I had done. So I was like, okay I’m going to run with this because it feels right, and there’s so much to the art… like I have puzzle pieces that are the wrong pieces that fit the right place, so that’s kind of a metaphor for where I’m at right now.
It’s definitely your most relatable album for me personally, the whole unlearning thing, touching on loss, grief and all the emotions that come with that, that all hit me on quite a personal level because I’ve been through a lot of that…
I hope it comes off with strength though, because I really don’t want this to be looked at like weak shit.
Oh no, I don’t associate those emotions with weakness, if you know what I mean? But did you find it was cathartic for you in that sense, making the album?
Yeah, I mean I’ve been an open book, so if you listen to my last album, we left off with the song “By My Side,” where I was talking about the recovery.
Yeah, I remember.
And then shit came back and I got fucked up, you know what I mean? I lost her, then raising the kid solo, trying to be a mom and dad, it’s a tall order, bro [laughs] as I’m sure you can imagine. And especially for someone with my lifestyle. Like if everything was right, I would have been out touring, making the money, keeping everything flowing; I would have been pressing on in the exact same fashion. But with this, it’s like a curveball got thrown at me, so how do I deal with this? So, I chose to make music through all this time and then it got to a point where I was like so do I share this, or do I wait until a point where I feel more up and just make a record that’s a little more… you know, not trying to weigh everyone down with all this shit. And then I thought about it and I was like, well why would I do that? [laughs] And the only reason I would not do that is if it comes off as a ‘feel bad for me’ record. But then I played it for people and they were like no I don’t hear that. So, then I was like, alright I’ll do it. There are moments in there where it’s not about that, you know like rapping with Conway and shit, but let’s just say the pen was moving for me a lot easier this time when I was writing about shit that was true to my life. Unfortunately, that’s not really what I wanted to be writing about, but it’s what made my pen move, so I was like fuck, I’m caught in a weird place. It’s kinda hard to front that you’re happy, when you’re not, and write about how dope you are, you know? So that was the issue with this one, but I made so many songs and the ones I made for volume one, I think they really capture where I have been in my life. Definitely not the brightest point, but you know…
Yeah, I think it does a great job of encompassing the emotions that come with what you’ve been through, so it’s not a heavy album, there are moments of hope and strength, so I think it’s a good all-round analysis of that journey you’ve been on. One of the songs that particularly caught my ear was “Won’t Give Up The Danger…
That’s a cheat for you cos you got Murkage Dave on there…
Well yeah that’s one of the things I was going to ask. How did you guys end up working together? He’s not the sort of name I’d necessarily expect to see on the tracklist.
Absolutely not. So, if it’s unlearning that means my mind’s open to shit that it hasn’t been before. Like I’ve had Aloe Blacc singing on my shit but these are people in my circle, you know? So, singing on my music is not foreign, but I never really thought about finding new singers. But I sent the song to Slug and I said what do I do in between, because the beat switches and they’re not in key, it’s kinda fucked up, so I’m like what do I put in between this? And he’s like, “Reggae!” [laughs]. He sent me this Smif-N-Wessun song and was like, “Some shit like this”. I was like okay that might be tight but I don’t know anybody. Then he called me back and was like, “No no no, you need a British voice!” [laughs] He said, “I’m telling you, man, I heard it. Check this out…” and he sent me this YouTube link for Murkage Dave, who he’d heard of because someone he knew put him up on it, and he liked it a lot. So he sent the tune to me and then I found him on Twitter, sent him a DM, I think it was my first ever Twitter DM [laughs]. So yeah then he hit me back, then he came to my show at Jazz Café and peeped it out, said he was with it and it got done.
And who does the production on that one?
Mr Green.
Ah right yeah cos I really dig the beat on that one, the way it changes up. It’s really interesting.
Yeah, it’s really dope.
And what about the track, “All Money 1983,” was there a significance to that year?
That would be the year I’m talking about where I met Al Pacino…
Yeah, I heard you mention that, but I didn’t know if there was more to it.
My mom named me after Michael from The Godfather, so that was like full circle coming around.
Yeah of course. And the hook on that – “All money is not good money, I know what my worth is” – is that another lesson you’ve had to learn recently?
It’s been reaffirmed more lately. I think we all know that.
Yeah, so touching on what you were saying at the start?
Yeah, so with business decisions and a lot of shit in life right now, and especially with having my son, time becomes super valuable, more valuable than ever. At a certain point you’ve got to set a standard for yourself, it just has to happen if you’re trying to go where your goals are going to take you. There are other cases where people gotta eat, sometimes we’ve all got to do shit we don’t want to do, and that’s tight too, I can respect the shit out of that. Then there’s a time when your attitude switches and you want to stand up for what you’re worth. So, there’s been promoters and there’s been feature options, there’s been plenty of things that looked lucrative, but they weren’t for the right reasons. Sometimes not doing those things can take you further than always doing them.
Yeah, that’s definitely something else I can relate to. I was very happy to see Navy Blue and Fly Anakin joining you on there. How did those features come about? Did Fly Anakin happen via Graymatter? You mentioned you were friends with him…
I actually reached out to Fly Anakin first. He came here and recorded with me, about a year and a half to two years ago, and we made three or four real good songs. So yeah, Fly Anakin came first and then Graymatter came through on a different trip. So, I met him and we just vibed. He made some crazy stuff over here so I was like yo, these two songs we got I’m going to make a 45 out of them and put it out soon. They were sitting really well after a year, still sounding really great. So, he was naturally around, then he came by another time and we did that one, so now we’re just friends making music. And Navy Blue, I’ve been fortunate enough to do like four or five joints with him now, and the one that we put out first did really fucking great, then I put another out with him recently. So, I’m producing these artists, getting to work with them and taking it seriously; they’re really inspiring me, so I wanted to showcase that. Boldy James, same. I got to be on his album, The Price of Tea in China, which is one of the best albums of the year, so that was a complete honour. And with Conway, Daringer produced that, you know, I had a Daringer beat so I was like okay let’s do this. I’d produced a couple for Gunn. So yeah, everyone on here is who I’m inspired by and who I’m around.
That’s great, man. I just wanted to talk about your voice because last time we spoke you told me about the issues you had in the past and then I read an interview where you said you were almost where you wanted to be with it on Weather or Not, so do you think you’ve got there now with this new record?
Well, this record was funny and also a big lesson for me, because normally I’ll demo my vocal out and then probably go to Alchemist’s studio, or somewhere else, where there’s a good vocal booth so then I can have someone else record me, so I can take it more seriously. This one, there were a lot of demo vocals I did that I tried to recut and they just felt fucked up, like they sounded cleaner and it just didn’t feel right for what I was trying to say. So, I left a lot of like home recorded shit on this one. There’s a couple where we separated the beat and we gave the engineer all the tools to really make the great mix, and it came back bright and big and round, and it felt like exactly the opposite of what I was trying to do [laughs], you know? It’s supposed to be a real recording of me at this time, it’s not a performance.
Yeah man, that makes sense. So, I just wanted to ask about a couple of projects that we spoke about before, that haven’t materialised yet, just to see if they’re still in the pipeline. The first was a version of The Squirrel Tape but with a load of different rappers over the instrumentals…
Okay so that didn’t come to fruition, 0 for 1, but in my defence, a couple of people did kill those joints, but no, it did not come together.
I think my original question was if you had plans to make a producer album and that was your answer, so is there anything like that on the horizon?
Okay, 0 for 1, but how I fight that back is Vol. 2, I’m holding the cassette in my hand right now. And I’ve got a record label that I’m starting, based on my production.
Oh wow, okay.
It’s called Bigger Picture Recording and I’m going to drop it in probably July or August of this year. I have a Planet Asia album I produced, Squirrel Tape Vol. 2. I’ll be putting out the Domo Genesis album I did a few years back, on vinyl for the first time. The Fly Anakin 45; I’m trying to get a Navy Blue 45. I’ve got some stuff with Willie the Kid… a bunch of stuff, all based on my production.
That’s really good to hear, man.
Yeah, really showcasing all that, because I feel like I never controlled my narrative as far as my production. I produced for Sean Price, Kanye West, a lot of amazing things, but it was always a track on this or a track there, you know what I mean? I just never really got to hone in on it. And this furthers what you and I were talking about, I just went a whole other step further [laughs]. I got a logo, a website coming, merch, everything. I’m going to go really hard with this one. I’m excited.
Yeah, I bet. And what did you say is going to be the first release on the label?
Squirrel Tape 2.
And that’s in July, right? So only next month!
Yeah, I’ve got the product coming in now, just waiting on the vinyl. I don’t want to announce the label and drop it right on top of my release, it makes no sense. Even though one is my production and one is me rapping, but still, I don’t want to confuse it. So I might wait until end of July or August to drop it. Then that’ll be followed by the Planet Asia album and the Fly Anakin 45.
That sounds really good. The other project I had in mind was the Step Brothers follow up, which I know a lot of people are clamouring for. Is there any hope of that emerging?
Yep, there is… is that it?
[both laugh]
Can you give me any more than that? Have you taken the first steps or anything like that, or can you not say at this time?
We’re doing something about it. Yeah, we’re doing something. That’s what the album’s going to be called.
[laughs] Wait, is it really?
No, I think it’s going to be called Paging Dr. Schaffhausen [A reference to the film Dirty Rotten Scoundrels – Ed.].
Good, good. Well, I look forward to it. Still with the Unlearning theme in mind and from what you’ve told me already, are there any pieces of advice you would give your younger self if you had the opportunity?
No, I think I had to go through this process. I just had to go this way.
I can understand that, man.
My younger self… okay yeah, my haircut. It was fucked up, I used to not get the front lined up. I don’t know why I didn’t do that; I’m still baffled to this fucking day. That would be it. So yeah, go to a better barber, bro. It will be so much better; your confidence will be way up.
***
Unlearning Vol. 1 is out this Friday via Rhymesayers Entertainment – preorder is here. Follow Evidence on Twitter and Instagram to stay up on the new album.
GingerSlim is a music journalist from Bristol, UK. His self-titled blog has been covering the UK and US indie rap scenes for over a decade, and he’s also a regular contributor to The Wire Magazine, Off Licence Magazine and The Find Mag. When he’s not writing about rap, you will usually find him with his face buried in a book, or talking to the birds. Follow him on Twitter and Instagram.